§ 01 · The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
Hudson opens with a parlor trick most of us have witnessed — the colleague who is physically at the table and completely invisible by the time the meeting ends. The cold open names a feeling everyone recognizes, then drops the thesis underneath it: all of the fear of being seen is a belief that there is something inherently wrong with you.
Who's talking.
00:00hostJoe Hudson
00:40cohostBrett Kistler
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 01:03
01 · Cold open: the meeting magic trick
Hudson opens with the disappearing colleague — physically there, mentally gone — then states the thesis: the fear of being seen is the belief that something is inherently wrong with you.
01:03 – 04:00
02 · Two flavors of the pattern
Acute social anxiety (the magic trick of invisibility, often rooted in childhood lessons about not standing out) versus the universal existential version everyone has.
04:00 – 06:09
03 · How it limits you in life and work
Career ceiling — leadership requires being seen. Loneliness compounds because hiding ensures you stay misread.
06:09 – 07:31
04 · Devastating in love
If you cannot share what you actually need, want, think — even small things — the relationship erodes from underneath. Resentment grows because you cannot be considered if you will not show yourself.
07:31 – 08:43
05 · The golden algorithm
Hiding generates the very signals (smallness, hesitation) that cause others to read you as not-confident — which becomes the evidence that confirms you were right to hide. The emotion you avoid is exactly what you invite in.
08:43 – 12:23
06 · Head, heart, body — where the fear lives
Each layer of the stack can fire on or off. The head self-corrects and beats itself up; the emotional layer is fear and shame; the nervous system goes fight/flight/freeze. Often they fight each other.
12:23 – 12:58
07 · Where to start working on it
Brett pivots: out of all of this, what is the entry point?
12:58 – 15:08
08 · The amazing-woman story
Hudson tells the story of a hyper-accomplished woman at dinner who could not admit her own needs even with her husband present. The pattern in microcosm.
15:08 – 16:46
09 · Open your heart to yourself: what do I need?
Asking what do I need directly opposes managing other people perception. If your needs are not safe, you take care of theirs by proxy — it never works.
16:46 – 18:50
10 · Soul dysmorphia + false vulnerability
Most of us see ourselves like an anorexic looks in the mirror. To break the dysmorphia: be vulnerable about a truth you do not want to admit (often a counter-story — somebody actually liked me and I could not let it in), not the story you have already told yourself a hundred times.
18:50 – 19:55
11 · Invert the familiar story
If your vulnerable story is the same one you always tell, it is not vulnerable. Look for the counter-evidence. Your nervous system (the pucker) will tell you when you have actually landed somewhere true.
19:55 – 21:13
12 · Open your heart to the other person
By worrying about what they think, you have already disconnected, objectified, and rejected them. The counter-move is to actually connect with them — and notice that the connection itself dissipates your concern with what they think.
21:13 – 22:48
13 · Wonder as antidote
Replace concern with curiosity: what are you seeing, how upset are you, how are you feeling about this. A thousand questions teach you most of what you are afraid of is false.
22:48 – 24:12
14 · What if they actually do not like you?
First question back: is the version of you they are not liking actually you, or just the frozen-scared part? Are you happy with how you are showing up?
24:12 – 25:14
15 · Am I proud of how I am showing up?
Shift orientation from outcomes to self-feedback: how do I want to behave such that I would be proud no matter what happens? Everything else (predicting, taking personally) falls away.
25:14 – 27:28
16 · The role of exposure
Repeated small acts of being seen (Connection Course, group therapy, 12-step) desensitize the shame. The places you are still scared to be seen are the places where the shame still lives — which means that is where the freedom is.
27:28 – 28:50
17 · The cure for loneliness
Hudson tells his daughter Esme: ask where you are not being yourself. Three days later she had three hard conversations and was no longer lonely. Loneliness can be cured fast by saying the things that matter to you.
28:50 – 30:24
18 · Beware of I should be more vulnerable
Should is just the shame loop wearing a new costume. Reframe: what do you need to take care of yourself? Self-care cannot coexist with self-criticism.
30:24 – 31:10
19 · Honoring your need for safety
The hiding pattern protected you. Honor that. The fix is not I have been doing it wrong all this time — that is just turning the eye on yourself again.
31:10 – 32:21
20 · Do not turn the eye on yourself
Any self-criticism in service of un-doing the pattern reinstates the pattern. Useful test: would you criticize someone else for it? For most people that move alone kills 80% of the shame.
32:21 – 33:46
21 · One concrete move: open your heart to the other person
If you freeze in a meeting or a tense conversation: open your heart to that person. Stop objectifying them. Notice you have already done to them everything you are scared they will do to you.
33:46 – 35:01
22 · The grief underneath + the Sauron bit
When the shame relieves, grief shows up — because you finally see how you have been treating yourself and others. Hudson catches himself: he has been saying eye of Siren the whole episode. They turn it into a live demo of the thesis: be willing to be seen wrong.
Lines you could clip.
00:19
"All of the fear of being seen is a belief that there's something inherently wrong with you."
07:31
"The more that I am scared to be seen, the more evidence that I can collect that shows: oh, if somebody sees me, there's gonna be a problem."
08:14
"The emotion that we are scared to have, we are avoiding the exact way that we are actually inviting it in."
10:25
"You've turned the eye of Sauron on yourself."
16:28
"Most of us have soul dysmorphia. We see ourselves the way that an anorexic person looks in the mirror and sees themselves as fat."
21:05
"If I choose to be connected with you, it doesn't really matter if you're connected to me from my experience."
27:48
"If you aren't doing that, you're not actually with anybody. You're by yourself in this reality."
28:39
"Loneliness can be cured if you actually show up in a way that you're proud of saying the things that are important to you."
33:33
"Everything you're scared they're going to do to you, you've already done to them."
33:52
"If I actually see how I've been treating myself and I see the way that I've been treating others, then I have to feel a fuck-ton of grief."
Things they pointed at.
25:34productRapid Fire Coaching
26:31tool12-step programs / group therapy
Word for word.
HOOK opening / re-engagementCTA the pitch metaphor analogy story
00:00HOOKYou go into a meeting. You're oh, there's the person who hadn't said anything, and somehow or another, they're, like, right there at the table, but nobody can even remember they were in the meeting. It's like this almost. Right? There is a fear that is if I get seen, I'm going to be seen as inherently bad. All of the fear of being seen is
00:19HOOKa belief that there's something inherently wrong with you. If they see me, they will find broken. Right? And so one of the ways to work on it is to actually open your heart to yourself and say, what is it that I need? Because that flies exactly in the face of me worried about what you think.
00:40We've been getting a lot of questions from people about the fear of being seen, why they want it so much, but they're also so scared of it. And right when they're about to be seen, about to be known, they they turn away and run from it. So let's do an episode where we dive into that and then talk about what people can do about it. Great. Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. So let's just start with, like, what is this? There's there's a lot of different ways that this can show up for folks. Yeah.
01:05So the fear of being seen, it can be split into two categories. There's the category that people who are just, like, acute in this feel, which is, oh, I am scared. I have social anxiety. I can figure out how to be completely,
01:22like, invisible. You go into a meeting, you're because, oh, there's the person who hadn't said anything, and somehow or another, they're, like, right there at the table, but nobody can even remember they were in the meeting. It's like this amazing this magic trick almost. Right? For those folks, it's very much about, like, oh, this isn't safe, and so my job is to avoid.
01:43And so there's oftentimes, there's a strong avoidance pattern, and oftentimes, what happened was somebody in their childhood taught them that, like, to be seen was going to be
01:56not good. One of my clients who had this a lot, he doesn't have it anymore, luckily, but had this a lot, He lived in a Eastern European country, and
02:08it was before the wall came down, and his parents were, like, tall poppy, no good, particularly his mom. His dad had gone, so his mom and so his mom was constantly, don't be seen. Don't be seen. Don't play the music. Don't be too macho. You're gonna get cut down. You're gonna be taken out. And so he was at once dominated by somebody who some somebody's fear,
02:31and he was told, like, do not be big. And so And that might have been true in that culture. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so he like, I remember he disappeared
02:42from the first time he did groundbreakings. Just just was wasn't even in the room. And so that's Not physically. He was physically in the room. He was physically in the room, but nobody could remember him. No. Like, he he it was literally as if he was doing a magician's trick of of being unseen while being seen. It was amazing to watch him, and we've now seen that pattern lots of times. The other form of not being seen is something that we all have
03:10that I don't think anybody has ever showed up at a rapid fire coaching and been completely not nervous. Right? And so the there's a core way in which we all are scared of being seen, and that's some shame, some way that we're scared that we're actually not good. We're not inherently good that we're inherently broken in some way. And so to be fully seen in that
03:34is is a whole another thing that just kinda hits all people on some level. And so both of them are are ways of it that happen. One is this very cute thing and one is something that happens for everybody. How does this often play out to the point in someone's life where they start to experience that this is holding them back? And
03:54what what typically happens at that inflection point? Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. I think on some level, depending on how hardcore it is. Right? So if somebody's got deep social anxiety, they immediately know this is holding me back. There's this fear in that somehow or another, they want to be liked. Like, there's this desire, oh, I wanna be liked. And there is a fear that is if I get seen, I'm going to be seen as inherently bad.
04:22So there's there's two different and so they have kind of two choices at that point. I'm gonna just seclude myself, in which they become more and more and more lonely,
04:33or I'm gonna go out into the world and interact in the world, and maybe I get more lonely depending on how real I am, or I just stay really quiet in a crowd and then I feel even more lonely because people don't see me. And so the loneliness builds and
04:51this idea that something is wrong with me builds over time. And they're not even able to see how people actually see them. Right? So I've seen people who have, like, either the social anxiety or scared to say the thing in the meeting, and everybody thinks they're really, really smart. And they really want the feedback, but they can't actually see it. Yeah. And so career wise, this totally stifles people. It's gonna limit you in, like, any kind of executive or leadership role.
05:20And so they start to see that. They start to recognize that that's what's going on. And then for most of us, like, for the for the folks who are scared of being seen in the existential way, which is, you know, most everybody,
05:36what they start doing what what starts happening is they just feel unsatisfied, like, the the sense of connection in their life. They know it can be stronger, and it's just never particularly there. And it doesn't really go there until they
05:52start really seeing themselves. To some degree, all of the fear of being seen is a belief that there's something inherently wrong with you. And if and you or somebody else is gonna find it out. How does this show up in, say, romantic relationships and in family? We've talked a lot about going out into the world Yeah. And, you know, in work meetings. But what about what about in love relationships?
06:16Devastating. Like, it's it's super devastating because basically what it means is I'm not gonna tell you what I need and what I want and who I am. And so if it there and what's interesting is some people, they can be in this very safe environment and they can share that. And and then some some people can't even share it in that environment. Some people can go out into work and be like, this is what I think blah blah blah blah, but when they come home,
06:42they can't share what's really there. They can't share whether it's like that kinky sexual thing that they want or they can't share the fact that they really wanna be rich, or they can't share the fact that they really think your mom sucks and I don't wanna be with her. They can't share all the, like, little things that happen in life, and so they start walking on eggshells and start being different people. And so it just starts to erode any relationship because eventually you're gonna get resentful over the fact that the person across from you isn't actually
07:15considering you or understanding you because we can't read each other's minds. Right. Right. So they can't possibly consider you if you're not showing yourself. So then you start to collect evidence over time that you're not being considered. And that you're bad. Yeah. That's the which we go into, you know, obviously, in other podcasts and stuff, which is the more that I am scared to be seen, the more evidence that I can collect
07:38that shows that, oh, if somebody sees me, there's gonna be a problem. Yeah. Right? Because I show up incredibly scared. People are not people are not as receptive to fear as as confidence, you know, that
07:53that I'm hesitant in the way that I talk about something. I'm viewing other people's responses that might just be curious and full of wonder as they don't believe me. They're they're challenging me. And see, I I said something that was bad. And so that's so it's one of those things that it does accumulate on itself
08:13because the emotion that we are scared to have, we are avoiding the exact way that we are actually inviting it in. So I'm scared to be seen, and therefore,
08:26like, when people see me, they see this scared thing and I don't get the love that I want to see. I've proven that I'm no good. Yeah. So we've talked about this belief, the the belief that I'm I'm unworthy, I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'm unlovable. Yeah. So how does this show up on a different levels of like the head, the heart, the gut? Like, because a lot of times when somebody freezes, they intellectually know I'm not bad. I have something valuable to share right now. What is making my entire body seize up? Why is my throat clenching? Why That's a great question. Why am I sweating?
08:58Why did that entire meeting happen without me even recognizing what was occurring? Yeah. It's an interesting one because that's exactly what you see when you're when rapid coaching is happening. People are like, and they know that yeah. But their head knows on some level that they they raised their hand. They want this thing. And then when the spotlight's on them, they're like, each
09:19one of these things, whether it's the head or the the human side, the emotional side, or the mammalian side, or the nervous system side. Each one of these things can be on or off. But if they're on, the head is basically saying, these people don't like me. They they if they see me, they're gonna think that I'm bad. I'm bad. That's what the head is doing it, and it's constantly self correcting.
09:42You said that wrong. You should have said it this way. Why didn't you say it that way? Yeah. Like, all that I can solve this by intellectually figuring out the way to be to get my needs met and really loved. Yeah. As if, like, people need you to be perfect to to like you, you know? And so that's what the the head is doing. If the head isn't doing that and it's just happening in the in the emotional center and the nervous system,
10:04then the head is like, why am I why don't just just speak. Why aren't you just speaking? You know, which is which is the criticism of of the parent or the teacher or whatever saying, just do the thing. So it's like you've actually turned the eye of Siren on yourself. Right. Like, what like and so you're under attack. Yeah. Right? And so and the more you're under attack,
10:28why aren't you doing this thing? Why why isn't this going right? The more the the rest of your system starts freezing up. And it ultimately can become a panic attack, a full blown literal panic attack. Well, right. So it's amazing when you think about it. It's like, to some degree, there's that external , like, okay. The the world is now paying attention to me. Somebody is going to criticize
10:50me. And the truth is, like, there's no time you're gonna be in public where somebody's not having a judgmental thought about you. Whether you're confident or nonconfident, whether you're scared or not scared, whether you have social anxiety or don't have social anxiety, we're all facing that same reality.
11:08And and then there's the internal eye of siren, and when that clicks on, then that can really rev up the emotional or the nervous system side of it. So the emotional side of it is typically fear.
11:23Some version of fear and shame combined. And so there's fear of the being seen, but there's also the shame of like, if they see me, they will find out that I am broken. Right? And so the I'm broken and the fear together is pretty much what's going on in those moments. Then the
11:42nervous system side is just like fight, flight, or freeze. That's what's happening. Oftentimes, folks, when they when they are being seen in a meeting or something like that, they'll just they'll just freeze. Right. Or some of them will please. Oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll say the thing that makes everybody happy, and then they're oh, okay. Great. Yeah. Just blend in. Blend in. And so Yeah. It's one of those two things is gonna happen on the nervous system level. And so
12:11and it's gonna be very activated. They're gonna feel hot. They're gonna feel, you know, like a lot of charge in the system from the from the nervous system. Yeah. Okay. So you you've got you've got all these layers of a stack here. You've got the the thoughts, the emotions, the the nervous system, and sometimes they're just fighting each other. Like, intellectually, somebody knows I have something valuable to share here. I showed up to this coaching session because I wanna see through my patterns. Yes. And the nervous system's
12:37locked up. Right. Maybe even vice versa sometimes. So I I'd love to talk about now where where can somebody start working on this first? What's of all these different ways that this shows up, what's a what's a good entry point for somebody to start investigating to change the pattern? Yeah. So, like, I I tell you a story. I had dinner the other night with
12:58this husband and wife team. They're, like, really super powerful, doing great stuff in the world. And the wife, every time she saw that I saw her, she would
13:12you know that she is, like, amazing on all fronts. She's a beautiful person. She's a beautiful woman, physically beautiful. She's done crazy cool stuff in the world, achieved stuff that most people would dream about achieving. And as a mom, and loving, and sweet, like, just like, wow. Right? And every time I saw her, she would look up, look down, like
13:39and at one point in the meeting, her husband got up, went to the bathroom, and I started talking to her about and she was basically saying some some version of, like, my kids worried about my kids not getting their needs met. I'm not worried about me
13:56not getting my needs met. I'm like, oh. And she's like, yeah. Basically, my needs are met, and I just went through. Like, really emotional needs needs being met? That scene. And she just, like, shut down. Her husband came back, and he's like, well, did you open up more? Like, what did you say now that I was gone? She goes, no. No. No. I just shut down even more. And then they laughed about it. She said it's great. And then, yeah, it was great. And so it was self aware too. Right? Amazing woman. And then
14:22and then and then they both laugh together. But that's, like, the quintessential thing of, like, okay. Well,
14:30what is it that makes her, like, this amazing person but not being able to admit her own needs is very much exactly the same thing as being seen and what made her scared, which is this shame
14:49of, like, oh, it's not okay for me to have needs, or the needs that I have aren't okay, or who I am generally isn't okay. And so I'm gonna just evacuate all of my own
15:02things that I need, that I that I want because they must be bad. And so those two things are part and parcel of the of the pattern. And so if you're if you're working on the pattern, there's lots and lots of ways to work on it.
15:18But one of the ways to work on it is to actually open your heart to yourself and say, what is it that I need? Because that flies exactly in the face of somebody me worried about what you think.
15:35Right. You worried about what you're you're right? Because I'm now where I'm all about you. I'm worried about you. Which is another way of trying to take care of your needs. So if if my needs in if my needs directly aren't safe, aren't welcome, aren't good, then if I take care of yours, then by proxy, my needs might get taken care of. Right. Except for it never works. Right. Or eventually doesn't work, which is why
15:59just going, oh, what do I need can totally start changing this pattern at a core level. So that's one of the ways that you can really work on how do you, you know, how do you change that core how do you change that basic fear of being seen? Yeah. So that's one. The other one is to actually deeply see yourself. Right? Like, what's actually true? Right. How how does how does somebody do that? Well, the dilemma is that most of us have, like, soul dysmorphia.
16:28CTARight? Like like, we see ourselves differently just the way that an anorexic person looks in the mirror and sees themselves as fat. Most of us sees our see ourselves, like, not very clearly. And so if you want to have a clean lens of seeing yourself, Connection Course View is, like, one of the best ways because if you're vulnerable with yourself, if you're impartial with yourself, if you have empathy with yourself, if you have wonder about yourself, that's where you start to see yourself
16:56CTAmore clearly. And that ties together with the recognizing your own needs because you're not gonna be seeing yourself if you're just seeing everyone around you. You're reading their minds, trying to fix them, trying to get everything okay for them in order to be safe. Yeah. Exactly. And so the weird part is, like, the vulnerable with your yourself, that's the, like, that's the tricky part here. Because what most people think are is gonna be vulnerable is, like, okay. Vulnerably,
17:19I and I had a client that did exactly this. I was, like, they had this fear of being seen. I'm, like, like, let's be vulnerable with yourself. He's, like, the vulnerable thing is that everybody doesn't like me. You know what I mean? I'm like, that's not still about everybody else. It's still the dysmorphia. It's still the same pattern. And it's also you're not being vulnerable because you've told yourself that story a 100 times.
17:43So what's the actual story that actually makes you, like, go, ugh. It's like, what is that? And, like, can you see some place where somebody actually really liked you and you couldn't acknowledge it or let it in? That
17:57and he immediately, he felt how much more vulnerable that was than to say people don't like me. That wasn't vulnerable at all. And so so the only thing I'd say, the impartiality, the empathy, and the wonder, that all clicks with this pattern. The vulnerability with yourself in this particular pattern
18:18doesn't mean I'm admitting that I'm bad. Yeah. It means I'm admitting a truth about myself that I don't want to see. Right? And so that's that's, like, part of, like, switching that around. Yeah. So, I mean, that example brings up a really interesting nuance, which is that if you if you say, okay, I wanna be vulnerable with myself. I'm gonna look at myself and see myself clearly. The first thing that's likely to happen is you're gonna see yourself exactly the way you've been seeing yourself already. Correct. And you're gonna hide from yourself exactly the things you've been hiding from yourself already. Yeah. So there's it seems like in that case, in that coaching moment Yeah. Something very specific that happened was actually directing
18:57the person's attention to counter evidence for what they actually currently thought. So if you're if you're going internally, you're like, what's what's what's vulnerable with myself right now? Nobody likes me. Okay. If I just assume that that is actually the story I've been telling myself already and I haven't seen anything new, how do I completely invert what I think I'm seeing Yeah. And look for the truth in the other side of it? Yeah. So the nervous system is what's gonna tell you that or the, like, the pucker is what's gonna tell you that quicker. Right? So intellectually, you can do it by just saying, okay. Let's look at counter evidence, and what's the counter evidence I don't wanna admit to? Yeah. Like, that's the easy question intellectually. Right. And that can surface the pucker. Like, oh, wait. I have actually been seen in love before, and then the pucker shows up. Yeah. Exactly. And, like, right? And then you're when when you feel that pucker, then you know you're actually in that vulnerable place rather than
19:51in the place that you're normally telling yourself or normally beating yourself up with. So that's another one. The other thing that you can do if you're scared of being seen is to open your heart to the other person. Because what you've done is you stopped love and connection from flowing between you and the other person. You're worried
20:10about what they're gonna think, which means you've disconnected. Yeah. You've objectified them in a way. There there's a way that they are now an object in your game of self regulating and feeling safe. Also, you're rejecting them. Yeah. Like, there's a way in which you're gonna hurt me. Basically, you're gonna what you're saying is you are gonna hurt me, which is a form of rejection.
20:31Yeah. And so you've already dismissed them. And so a counteraction is to actually open your heart to them and say, oh, how like, how open and loving can I be to this person no matter what they think or feel about me? That doesn't mean that I'm not gonna draw boundaries. It doesn't mean I'm gonna take abuse. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna be, like, a punching bag for somebody.
20:52But it does mean, oh, right, I'm gonna actually stay connected with you. So what's amazing is that if I choose to be connected with you, it doesn't really matter if you're connected to me from my experience.
21:07Right? If I'm connected to you, and you can like, anybody who's listening to this right now can just do it. You can just say, okay. Like, deeply connect with Brett. Brett is, like, not connecting with you right now. Brett's connecting with me. But, like, connect with Brett and notice how much less you give a shit what Brett thinks about you because there and how much that connection doesn't really require Brett.
21:34So that's the amazing thing. It's like, oh, I can open my heart. I can connect with somebody, and that dissipates my concern with what they think about me, which is, like, mind boggling and, like, it just so reverse of the way that you think things. And it it as it dissipates the concern for what they think about you, it increases the wonder for what they're experiencing,
21:55which might be thoughts about you. Right. But the wonder replacing the concern is an interesting shift and opens up the nervous system, opens up the sense of safety and the receptivity to new data, new information. Yeah. And then wonder is another great one. So let's just say somebody is you're
22:14you're showing up, somebody sees you, you're like, this is going horribly wrong. Mhmm. Like, Hughes wonder,
22:23oh, what are you seeing right now that's that that's got you upset? Or how upset are you at at me right now? Or how are you how are you feeling about this relationship? There's, a thousand questions that will teach you that a lot of what you think is just not true at all about the other person. What
22:43if the other person has been running the same pattern? And so you ask them those questions, and then they finally have the opportunity to dismiss you and do all the stuff that you've been doing. Yeah. Great. And so you take that personally. You're like, I knew it. I knew it. They don't like me. Yeah. So let let's just assume that for a second. Let's assume that
23:02you are not being liked by somebody. Well, the first question is it you that showed up, Or is this frozen scared, like Right. So I'm bad because I get frozen scared. That's just me, and people don't like the frozen scared, and I don't know how to change it. What do I do? Right. Exactly. So so the first question is, like, is that you?
23:24That's the first question you have to ask yourself. Is that frozen scared thing you? Like, what's you? What do you have to do to show up to be you? And the second question that's really good to ask yourself, are you happy with you? Is this how you wanna be? One of the things that I notice is that when somebody's being the way that they wanna be, they care a lot less about what other people think. Right?
23:46Because they're not in their own shame. This is actually I'm really proud of this. So oftentimes, if someone's, like, preparing for a meeting or preparing for, like, the first date, they're thinking about what the other person's gonna think about them, and they're trying to manage that situation. But if they go in and say, what's the way that I can behave that will make me super proud no matter what happens?
24:10Everything starts changing. Right. Yeah. So Yeah. Because you're loving yourself. You're opening your heart to yourself, and the opening in the heart works whether towards the other person or towards yourself.
24:21You're also moving from a orientation to outcomes and more towards an orientation to something that's a more direct feedback in yourself in the moment of how do I want to be. Right. Am I the way I want to be right now? Am I showing up how I wanna show up? And then everything else that happens, I don't need to be tracking, predicting, futuring, taking personally. All those things get to fall away if my
24:42direct feedback for my behavior is if I'm showing up in a way that feels great to me. Right. Which is another version of what is it that I need. Yeah. Right? It's another version of that, which is, oh, if I'm gonna be proud of myself in this moment, how do I wanna behave?
25:02CTABut so so none of these things are gonna work absolutely except for if you have the access to be able to open your heart. That one's like a very quick absolute thing. So what happens for other folks is they're like, I wanna behave this way, but then they get in there and they're in that nervous system fight or flight or freeze because, oh my gosh, I'm, you know, like this it's like this deep trauma
25:25CTAof it. And so there's another way of working with it, which is just exposure. So you see this happen a lot when people do our work. All of our courses, there's a lot of being seen.
25:37CTAAnd as they are seen, they become more and more comfortable with themselves. Mhmm. I mean, it's this amazing thing. So, you know, how many people have we seen go through the connection course and they get deeply seen by five different people over the series of the course, and then they're they're just, like, so much more comfortable in who they are. Mhmm. And so it's the same thing that you see in, like, 12 step programs or
26:02group therapy where the more I speak about the thing and I'm seeing in it, the less I care what people think. You know? So I remember there was a time when I was in my twenties and I'm like, my dad's alcoholic, and everybody's gonna judge me. Now I'm like, yeah, my dad's an alcoholic. I would say it on, like, public everywhere. It doesn't like, yeah, my dad was an alcoholic.
26:22I don't see that at because I have no shame around it anymore. Yeah. And the places that I am I'm not where I'm scared to be seen are the places where I have the shame, and which gives tells me this is the place where I have the freedom. And shame one of the best ways to to just address the shame is to
26:44share it with people and notice, oh, they're not ashamed. They don't think there's something broken with me or to notice, wow, we all have that. Like, every like, everybody has a parent not everybody. Most people have a parent that was addicted to something somehow emotion, television, something like most people have shame. Most people have fear. Most people like, these are all human experiences.
27:08Yeah. So it's interesting. It's like both of the ways out are either recognizing I'm not alone in thinking this or I was alone in thinking this. Like, this was only a thought in my own head, like, I'm the only one I invented this. Exactly. It's it's kind of funny how that's like, both of those seem to be a way out. Both. Yeah. And and and exposure. Just,
27:27oh, I am going to little ways be seen every day. Yeah. And the thing that that does is that most of the people who who feel are scared of being seen but wanna be seen, another experience that they have a lot of is that they're lonely. And so this stops the loneliness. So, like, recently, I was talking to my daughter, and she was just noticing, like, she's got friends in college and everything like that, and she's she's like, oh, I'm starting to feel lonely.
27:56And my question to her was like, what are the ways that you're not being yourself? What are the ways that you're not showing up asking for what you want, saying what's wrong, having the hard conversations? Because if you aren't doing that, you're not actually with anybody. You're all you're by yourself in this reality. And so, literally,
28:16I think it was, like, three days later because, you know, Esme is amazing. She she called me up, and she was like, I've had three hard conversations in two days. I feel so much better.
28:28I've, like, had these like, I just looked everywhere that I wasn't saying the thing or being the person that I wanted to be, and I just did it. And I feel so much better. And it's and it happens just like that. It's amazing how quickly loneliness can be cured if you actually show up in a way that you're proud of saying the things that are important to you. Yeah. And I also wanna talk about another aspect of the shame in this pattern, which is often people
28:53will show up with, I I really want to be seen. I should be seen. I should be doing a thing. I should go have the hard conversations. And so that exact set of behaviors you just described Yes. Could be somebody something that somebody tries to force themselves into or beat themselves up into as a part of this pattern. What would you say to to that? To somebody who's like, I
29:13should really show up more. I should really be seen. I should really be vulnerable. What I would say is I would point back to the beginning, which is what do you need to take care of yourself? What what do you need to open to your heart or to yourself and to other people? Because that framing
29:29prevents it from being, I should do this. I should do that. I should do this other thing. Because there's a, like, a self care, there's a love, there's an expansion in that feeling. There's an opening up to yourself and to the other person. Yeah. And so that can't coexist with you should do this. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Your question is a great pointer because it is
29:51emotionally going from
29:56what what what what what to, oh, I can actually just love this moment, you, myself. And that's really what's changing on the emotional level is you're going from a contraction
30:08to an openness, whether it's through wonder or whether it's through love or whether it's through admitting and owning your needs or what would I be proud of. They're all these things are emotionally opening you up to the experience of what's going on. Mhmm. And when you are closed down and contracted emotionally, you're not actually experiencing reality.
30:29Yeah. You're experiencing your thought of what reality is. What about also the need for safety? If if my if I see myself as bad or wrong for hiding, for all the hiding I've done in my life, what about acknowledging the need to feel comfort, the need to feel safe that that pattern provided for me even while it limited me in many ways. Awesome. Yeah. I think that's a great thing to do. Yeah. Right? That's another version of loving yourself. That's another version of, like, honoring who you are. So addressing this pattern isn't about,
31:00oh, I've been doing it wrong all this time. I've been hiding, and I should be getting out there and getting seen. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, if you beat yourself up, then you are like, we talked about this earlier in the episode. If you're beating yourself up, then you are now
31:18the eye of Siren turned on yourself. Yeah. So any way in which you are, like, putting that same criticism on yourself to undo that is gonna be incredibly useful for this pattern. Right? Because that self criticism is the shame.
31:35Right? And so any way that you can really look at that shame, and there's lots of ways to look at the shame and and start to unwind it. One is with people that we talked about. But another way to really look at that shame and unwind the shame is to just
31:52ask yourself, would you criticize somebody else for it? And that for some people, that's gonna get rid of, like, 80% of it. Oh, so somebody else was, like, scared as a kid and they learned to hide. Do you think Especially if it's somebody they care a lot about. Exactly. Yeah. Did you are they an asshole? Are they bad? Do they need to be fixed?
32:13HOOKRight? And so that's another way to just really quickly say, oh, wait. If it wasn't me, would I treat myself this way? Mhmm. Yeah. So I I wanna leave people with one, like, specific concrete thing that they can do. Yeah. Next time they show up to, say, a meeting or a tense conversation with their partner and they're freezing up, they're hiding, they recognize this pattern's alive, this podcast is ringing in their head, and
32:37HOOKthat little tiny part of the limbic system that's still active Yeah. Is like, what do I do? What what's a thing? Open your heart to that person. Mhmm. So stop objectifying them. Recognize that you've already cut yourself off from them. You're judging them. You're basically saying in that moment, you're gonna attack me. You're a bad person.
33:00HOOKYou only care about yourself. You can't see me, and you're totally self obsessed and focused on you.
33:11HOOKThat's what you're saying about the other person. So you've already, like, fully disconnected, and and you're worried about what they're thinking about you, but you're basically thinking all those things about them. You're like And you. And you. Yeah. You. Right? Like and that's the hard thing for people to, like, really just grok is, like, oh, if I'm scared about what you're gonna say about me, I've judged you,
33:33HOOKI have I have categorized you, I boxed you, I I've made you into an enemy Yeah. Like, which is everything you're scared that they're gonna do to you. You've already done to them. And look, they don't seem to give a shit. Yeah. Which I I
33:49and I think that's where, like, a lot of the fear when people come to a coaching session about this comes from is, oh, if I actually see how I've been treating myself and I see the way that I've been treating others, then I have to feel a fuck ton of grief. That's right. And possibly in front of these 300 people on this call. Right. Yep. But in front of myself Yeah. Especially. Exactly. Because that's what shame's job is is to
34:13is to stagnate an emotional experience. Right? And so when that shame relieves, there's gonna be grief and other emotions that need to be felt that are are gonna be scary. Yeah.
34:26Like, might find yourself on a podcast and be like, I'm Joe Hudson and I just realized that I've been pronouncing I have saron wrong this entire episode. I knew I was doing that. What is is it Sauron or Sireon? Sai I still got it wrong. Sireon. I'm gonna call it Sireon. What is Sireon. Go for it. Sireon. Yeah. Exactly. It's horrible. Everybody's gonna judge me.
34:48Everybody who judges Joe for that, please. Yeah. They're already commenting. It's already been there. It's been happening. What a pleasure. Pleasure to be with you. Yeah. You too, Joe.
— full transcript
§ 05 · For Joe
Steal this episode structure.
Coaching podcast playbook
Open with a parlor trick everyone recognizes, name the thesis in 20 seconds, then spend 30 minutes teaching the way out — and make the product the next logical step inside the teaching itself.
- Cold open with a universal recognition moment (the person nobody can remember was in the meeting). Don't explain it — just describe it. Trust the audience to feel seen.
- State the thesis once, early, in one sentence (the fear of being seen is the belief that there's something inherently wrong with you). Then earn it for the next 35 minutes.
- Build a 'golden algorithm' loop for whatever you're teaching — the trap that confirms itself. This is the single most clippable idea in the episode.
- Use a three-layer stack model (head/heart/nervous system, or any equivalent). It explains why your audience already knows the answer intellectually but still can't move.
- Soft-CTA your offer by making it the answer to the question you're already coaching. Don't break frame to pitch. Repeat the same soft mention twice across the episode.
- End on the meta-demonstration. Hudson's Sauron mispronunciation became proof of the thesis — be willing to be seen wrong. Look for the moment in your own recording where the lesson actually happened to you on camera.
§ 05 · For You
What to actually try.
If you're thinking about trying it
Next time you freeze in a meeting or shrink in a hard conversation, the move isn't to push yourself to be more visible — it's to open your heart back to the person across from you.
- When you catch yourself hiding, ask 'what do I need right now?' — the question itself reverses the pattern, because hiding requires you to be focused on what they think.
- If you tell yourself the same vulnerable story you always tell ('nobody likes me'), that's not vulnerable. Look for the counter-evidence — a time someone actually liked you and you couldn't let it in. That's the truth you're hiding.
- Before a hard conversation, change the question. Not 'will they like me?' but 'will I be proud of how I show up regardless of what they do?' Then orient to that.
- When you're scared someone is judging you, notice you've already judged them — boxed them, made them an enemy. The fix is to open your heart back to them, not to manage them.
- Use wonder. Ask the person what they're seeing, how they're feeling, what they think. A thousand questions teach you most of what you feared was never real.
- Be seen in small ways every day. Each one chips at the shame. Hudson's daughter had three hard conversations in two days and her loneliness lifted.
- When the shame starts to relieve, expect grief. You're going to see how you've been treating yourself and others. That grief is the work — let it land.
