§ 01 · The Hook
The bait, then the rug-pull.
The hook that made Ava Yuergens $2 million was one sentence long. A 7.9-million-view Instagram reel — scripted, not improvised — walked viewers through three steps for growing from zero, ended with a comment CTA, and turned 13,000 comments into over 100 recurring clients at $2,000-4,000 a month.
Who's talking.
00:00hostJack Neel
00:48guestAva Yuergens
Where the time goes.
00:00 – 01:30
01 · Cold open
Host teases guest results; Ava identified as 20-year-old making $700K/month on Instagram
01:30 – 06:50
02 · The $2M video
7.9M-view tutorial generated 13k comment leads; 100+ clients at $2k-$4k/month recurring = $2M ARR
06:50 – 13:05
03 · Agency at scale
350-400 clients, 100+ employees, SOP-driven; quality maintained through checkpoints and managers
13:05 – 15:40
04 · Origin story
Rich Dad Poor Dad at 15, duplex at 15, couch flipping for capital, graduated early, posted short-form about real estate
15:40 – 18:50
05 · The outlier research method
Search niche on Instagram explore, find top 10-20 creators, identify 5x videos, log hooks+topics+formats to spreadsheet, repeat monthly
18:50 – 23:30
06 · Three-hook framework and formats
Visual + written + verbal hooks in first 3 seconds; talking-head wins for followers even at lower views
23:30 – 30:00
07 · Education beats entertainment for followers
Entertainment gets views, not followers. Education converts to follows. Memes are a vanity metric for service businesses.
30:00 – 36:00
08 · Daily routine and discipline
Wakes at midnight, 4-5 hours deep work, gym, winds down at 3pm. Solitude is the key condition for deep work.
36:00 – 42:40
09 · No courses; ManyChat funnel
Turned down Adobe and ManyChat affiliate deals. Funnel: video CTA -> comment word -> DM landing page -> VSL -> call.
42:40 – 52:00
10 · Fluff vs. value; quality vs. quantity
Fluff = generic advice. Value = specific, actionable, immediately applicable. Testing 30 scripts beats perfecting 4.
52:00 – 61:00
11 · Client case studies
Carl (franchise broker): 3 months under 100 followers, month 4 got 9M-view video. Format replicated across franchises.
61:00 – 71:00
12 · Money and investing
$700K/month at 20; $2.5K/month personal expenses; invests $5K/month in index funds; drives a mediocre car.
71:00 – 83:00
13 · Pricing, sales, churn
40% close rate on warm ManyChat leads; churn: impatience (new accounts need 3-4 months) or client never films.
83:00 – 91:00
14 · Posting mechanics
US IP address required; Meta Business Suite now matches manual posting; Facebook captions can include links.
91:00 – 101:00
15 · ManyChat, freebies, stories
1,000 hooks freebie took 300 hours; stories get 500+ clicks/day; follow-to-receive beats email opt-in.
101:00 – 106:00
16 · AI in content
AI useful for research; bad for scripting (recognizable patterns destroy credibility); auto-captions were a step change.
106:00 – 112:00
17 · Live scripting demo
Live-scripted 60-second reel: broad hook -> 3-step research-and-post framework -> CTA. Mirrors the $2M video structure.
112:00 – 120:00
18 · Hiring and organization
Tests replace resume screening; girls in client-facing roles, men in sales and editing. Google Drive + Go HighLevel.
120:00 – 134:57
19 · Personal philosophy and closing
College only for degrees you will use; loyalty and infidelity views; treat everyone like they are an undercover Jesus.
Lines you could clip.
00:15
"Not to flex, but I'm pretty fucking good at social media marketing."
29:00
"If it gets five x views in the account's followers, that's like a viral video in my mind."
34:18
"If I had to rank things: it's the hook, then the script, then the format, and then probably the editing."
139:00
"People are stupid. Just make it dumb."
42:09
"You've got to care more about the clients you have than the clients you can get."
129:15
"Treat everybody like they're an undercover Jesus. You'll notice how much better and kinder you are to people."
Things they pointed at.
08:22bookRich Dad Poor Dad
114:30toolSort Feed extension
98:00toolGo HighLevel
121:00channelApril Lynn Alter
105:30toolAutopod
Word for word.
00:00Today's guest has mastered the art of short form content. Not to flex, but I'm pretty fucking good at social media marketing. Always ahead for her age, she bought her first real estate property at 15 years old, got married at 16, and now at 20 is generating millions of dollars a year on Instagram.
00:15So, Eva, you just turned 20. How much money did you make last month? 700
00:20k. In this episode, we'll break down her secrets to achieving consistent virality on social media.
00:25Step one, I would go to the Instagram explore page, type in my niche. I would save, a 100 videos over a million views. Unveil the blueprint for becoming the dominant voice in any niche.
00:35Step two, take the hooks from those videos, and I would write 30 scripts with those viral hooks, but my own niche expertise. And explore the viral secrets top creators don't want you to know. Step three, I would Eva Juergens.
00:48Welcome to the Jack Neil podcast. Happy to be here. Awesome.
00:52Yeah. Eva just came in, uh, from Las Vegas. She was at acquisition.com
00:58workshop with, uh, Alex and Leila Hermozi. So, yeah, pretty cool to have you here. I've I was just telling you before, I've been a big fan of her content for a while.
01:06I think the advice she gives on Instagram is super pertinent for short form content and just seeing her growth. I mean, how many followers have you gained in the past, like, two years? My
01:18business Instagram is two years old, so it's like zero to 500 k on that Instagram. And she also has really, uh, good business model that generated her a lot. And she's 20 years old, which is very rare to be making, uh, this kind of money at 20, but we'll get into that.
01:33Um, so, Eva, what's the most amount of money you've made from an Instagram reel?
01:42Basically, how it works, just the funnel to explain it. If someone watches a video, and at the end of the video, I'm like, hey, comment x y z, and I will send you information about my service.
01:54So we had one of our videos where we basically explained how to grow an Instagram from scratch, and it got 7,900,000
02:02views, 13,000, like, leads.
02:06And if people sign up with me, I do like a monthly reoccurring done for you service. They're paying anywhere from 2,000 to 4,000 a month to work with me. So we got a lot of clients.
02:19Obviously, all 13,000 of those comments converted, but we got a lot of clients and I wanna say like 2,000,000 in annual revenue from that one video.
02:28Got it. So you got roughly how many clients from that video?
02:31Was about a hundred, two hundred? I want to say a 100 something. But, yeah, they basically turn into reoccurring revenue clients.
02:39Annually, that'd be 2,000,000. Interesting. So that one video, when was that posted?
02:44August '24. August 24.
02:47Okay. So almost a year ago and wow.
02:51So from that first video, how long had you been doing Instagram, uh, like that new brand up until that point? Was that just a few months in? Yeah.
02:59Oh, that was like a year in. I was sitting around probably like a 100 k followers,
03:06but that probably bought brought in also like 200 k followers and a ton of leads. So that like really really took off, um, the Instagram and the business.
03:15Now, how many clients would you say you service with the business? Yeah. We service around, let's say,
03:23three fifty to 400. Interesting. Okay.
03:26And then what do you do for each of those people? Yeah. So for the done for you service, basically, we
03:33spend like ten to twelve hours every single month researching the top performing short form content in that client's niche, and we only work with business owners. And then we take that research and they have to fill out like onboarding documents in the beginning.
03:48And we create viral scripts out of, like, the viral hooks we research, the topics that clearly work, and then we just make the value of the video kind of specific to them, what they teach, and everything. And then they film the videos, We'll take them back.
04:02We'll edit them, and then we post them for the client. So it's like a monthly service where we're either making fifteen, twenty, or 30 reels for them. And it's like primarily
04:12Instagram reels, but we'll also repurpose on, like, TikTok, YouTube shorts, all the short form platforms. So essentially, one video converted to about 2,000,000 a year in revenue.
04:23Yes. And then from there, you've kind of just been maintaining and growing that amount of clients and trying to scale your systems to service as many people as possible.
04:32Like, how many people would you say are on your waiting list that, like, you can't service but, like, you have leads for? Uh, we actually don't have a waiting list. Okay.
04:41I'm like we have a ton of SOPs. So when we hire someone, we're able to onboard really quickly. But, yeah, we basically just have a ton of SOPs, so it's not like something
04:51that we have to build out a wait list for, but we are pretty selective. I would say we're more selective now than before of just like what niches we work with just to make sure they're all, like, very solid ones that have grown on social before.
05:04So like personal trainers, dog trainers, or just like any niche that has kinda case studies or social proof that we've already done or just, like, on social media already that we know can grow. It's just fascinating.
05:15I I just don't understand how you can scale to that many people and maintain quality. But it's obvious that you have because these people stay on recurring revenue. Like, how do you how many employees do you have?
05:27A lot. So we have a mix of ten ninety nine contractors and w two. So it's over a 100 right now.
05:34Jesus Christ. Yeah. So it's a lot of people.
05:37A 100 people. Oh my gosh. Um, okay.
05:40And then did you when you first started the business, were you like, how many employees did you have before that video took off? Like, were you kind of scrambling to just fulfill as many people as possible? I would say we had, like, 30, but we were, like, pretty comfortable then.
05:55But then once that video came out, we had to hire really quickly. But I will say with any agency,
06:02like, you have to learn to keep quality up at that scale. Like, it's definitely been a learning curve and I've definitely made mistakes, but
06:11I've learned so much. And I have, obviously, so many SOPs now, so many managers in place, just so many, I guess, points to check quality. But, yeah, a lot of quality control has been implemented and a lot of just extra positions just to make sure it stays the same because it can get bad really quick if you're not careful.
06:29Yeah. It seems like you're more focused on maintaining the clients that you have than trying to get new ones. Is that the case?
06:35Yes. Yeah. For sure now, that's where I'm at.
06:38Just trying to retain them as best as possible, get them the best results. Obviously, I want to grow, of course, but it's you've got to care more about the clients you have than the clients you can get.
06:48Okay. So Ava, you just turned 20 what was it? Two months ago?
06:52Three months ago? March. Like, end of March.
06:55So two, three months. Yeah. How much money did you make last month?
06:59I wanna say 700 k.
07:04Oh my god. I'm sorry. It just throws me off every time people, like, say these numbers.
07:09You made $700,000 last month. And then are do are your expenses high for your business?
07:14I wanna say they're a little bit under 50%
07:20of revenue. So yeah.
07:22I mean, that's pretty average for an agency. Yeah. So you're making $700,000
07:27a month at 20 years old, which is ridiculous. Uh, is, like, when did this kind of journey start for you?
07:33I'd love to just kind of know, like, the what were you like in high school? What were you like in middle school?
07:38Have you always been a scrappy entrepreneur? Like, how did you find success at a young age? Yeah.
07:44I'm so different from when I was 14. But originally, like, going into high school,
07:51all I kinda cared about was, like, my friends. I had straight a's. Like, I was a good student.
07:56I wanted to be successful, but I probably I didn't really think about being a business owner for when I was that age.
08:03But then I don't remember or actually I do.
08:08So my social studies teacher when I was 15, he started talking about Andrew Carnegie and like him just being scrappy and starting his own company and being so successful
08:20after being, like, growing up so poor. He like, it just was so inspirational. So I just searched up on Google like, how to be successful or something stupid,
08:28and like the best books to read to be successful. And then that's when Rich Dad Poor Dad popped up. So then I was 15.
08:35Didn't have my license. So I made my sister drive me to Target after school, and I got that book.
08:41And then when we got home, my dad was home, which was super weird, but he had like a mask on and we were like, crap. And he had COVID, so this was like right when the pandemic was starting. But we had to quarantine for a week, so I was off of school, and I read that book probably like two days in, and I was dating
08:58my boyfriend at the time. He was my boyfriend, Ben. And we
09:02I made him read it right away, and then we were like, oh my god, like, why wait until we're 18? Why don't we just start a real estate investing company now? So we did,
09:11which was so hard to do when we were teenagers, but we basically direct mailed. We cold called every day after school because we went the off market route trying to find properties to do like long term rental investments. And
09:25eventually, after three months of doing that every single day, we finally got someone to say yes. And we got a duplex in it's like right outside Milwaukee.
09:36And that was our first investment. And then we kind of did that all throughout of high school where we got short term rentals and long term rentals. But it was I always say this, but like real estate's pretty miserable.
09:48Because like, you're talking to people on the phone who like you're trying to get them to like sell you their house. Yeah. And they like hate you, obviously.
09:57And like, you get called a vulture, you get screamed at, and like, it's just not fun. But after high school so I graduated after my junior year. I just went full time into real estate, and I started posting just short form content on social media about it, and just being young in business, and like as a teenager in real estate.
10:14And like within the first month, I got like 50,000 followers just from posting short form content. And then I just realized it was so much better than real estate. And I was like, wow, I could probably do this for other business owners.
10:26Because building your personal brand back in 2022 when I graduated, that's when it's like really started kicking off and became like a like the term personal brand. So I started doing that for other people and just cold outreaching with like my Instagram account just two business owners I saw online.
10:45And I got a few clients, and I kind of started off just like editing for them, just the shorts. But then that eventually turned into me starting my business Instagram,
10:55then building out the full done for you offer. And that's like the only service I have now. I've just dialed in on making that perfect.
11:01But that is kind of how that'll happen. Got it. So let me back up a bit on the real estate.
11:06Where did you get the capital to kind of invest in these properties? Mhmm. So Ben, he
11:13I forget where he disc I think it was just YouTube, like Ryan Pineda on YouTube, if you're familiar with Ryan. He, um, posts a video about couch flipping where it's basically you find a couch on Facebook marketplace for pretty cheap.
11:25You buy it, you clean it up, you just take better pictures, and then you put it back out. And we were making like 3 to $500
11:33just flipping couches on Facebook an hour, I would say. 3 to $500
11:37an hour. But the only problem with that is like you have to wait for the couches to come on. But we did that the entire summer,
11:44so we got like a good chunk of cash that we were able to use. Because property properties outside of Milwaukee, like, they're not like a lot.
11:54They're not what people are used to. They're anywhere from like 100 to 200 k. So you didn't you don't need a huge down payment.
12:01But in order to buy it, you have to like cosign if you're if you're our age because you're under 18. But there's like different ways you get creative cosigning or
12:10getting an getting an LLC in, like, your parents or guardian's name, and then eventually getting that when you're 18. So And were your parents involved in real estate, like investments? No.
12:20They are not like, I mean, they have a house, but not for investing. Got it. Do you mind me asking, like, what line of business are they in?
12:27Yeah. So my mom was a teacher, and then my dad, he,
12:31uh, w two up until I was 10, and then he started his own company. It's pretty boring, but it makes money.
12:39So it's basically, uh, he makes phase converters, which is like if you have a frozen yogurt shop and you wanna plug your big frozen yogurt machines in like an outlet, it won't work because it needs so much power.
12:52You can't just plug it in a regular outlet. So you get a phase converter to get more power, and then you can plug it in that and it won't work.
12:59So that's basically what it is. But he makes, like, big electrical machines for, like, bigger businesses. Yeah.
13:05And then your boyfriend, now husband Ben, you basically made a video when you were 14 saying that you were gonna marry your current husband. Yeah. So
13:17I remember when I first saw Ben in the math hallway, I was like, wow. This is the most muscular
13:23hot dude I've ever seen. And we were like 14, so I was like, wow. So two weeks later, here's my boyfriend, of course.
13:32Just kidding. But, yeah, we hit it off right away. Thing with Ben is like,
13:38he it was just never awkward. We were friends right away and he's like such a socially awkward guy, so it was weird that like he felt the same way. But, yeah, Ben's my best friend.
13:47And then what was the video you made? Yes. So that was probably like
13:52a month into our relationship. I was just like I'm basically, my mom recorded a video when my friends were over and I was like, I'm gonna marry Benjamin William Otto.
14:02And we just had that play at our wedding. No. Take this at my wedding.
14:06Here, play the Play the of your wedding. And this is me at 14 years old on December 8 on a Sunday in 2019, and I'm telling you, I'm a freshman, by the way.
14:17And I'm telling you right now that I'm getting married to Ben Otto. So that video we got that video was when I was 14. We got engaged at 16 and then married at 19.
14:27So we just played that video at our wedding. But I posted that on social media, and I think that is probably my most viral video because it got 50,000,000 on Instagram, like, 60,000,000
14:38on TikTok, and it got, like, in People Magazine. We went on the news for it.
14:44But, yeah, it was pretty crazy. Interesting.
14:48Is is that the video that kind of got you into social media, or did you post that just kind of randomly after you were making real estate? Related content? That video specifically
14:57was it was like me reacting to that video at my wedding. Reaction content does so well, especially in like real life situations like that.
15:05So I think that is why that went viral. And like, I don't edit my videos, but we got our wedding footage back in October. And I was like, I know this this is gonna work.
15:15So I just edited it and I posted it after like ten minutes, and it did. Was that the first viral piece of content you made, or had you gone viral before? No.
15:23This is why Instagram is already pretty built up. This was in, like, I wanna say September, October.
15:28So pretty recent. But that was, like, probably my biggest video. Okay.
15:33So to get into some of the virality related stuff, uh, because you service 300, 400 people on going viral consistently. What would you say is the number one mistake people make when trying to go viral on social media?
15:48Yeah. So people just like sometimes I always like to say everyone thinks they're a great marketer,
15:55but they will just post videos that they come up with and kind of expect it to go viral. And then eventually, when it doesn't, they'll just give up.
16:05But the thing with content is there are so many case studies out there of people in your niche that have already gone viral. And what you can do is you can just search up your niche in the Instagram explore page and you can click accounts, you and can find like the top 10 to 20 people in your account or like in your niche.
16:23You go to their accounts and you basically want to look for videos, like we call them outlier videos, that's basically videos that just get a significantly amount or a like a
16:34how how should I word this? Like a higher amount of views than their average Yes. Perks.
16:38Like, I I do what's called the five x rule. So I'm like, okay, if it gets five x views in the account's followers, that's like a viral video in my mind. So we'll add all of those to a spreadsheet from their page, and then we will write out like the hooks, we'll write out how many views it got, the topic of the video, like the format it was filmed in, and we'll do that for like 10 to 20 videos for each creator for those 10 to 20 creators.
17:00So you're getting a list of like few 100 reels that are like the best performing in your niche. And then you just use the hooks and the topics from those videos in your own content, but make the value your expertise
17:13and like your actual actionable valuable advice. And that is what works. And even still, like, when you're starting a new account,
17:21you can do that. But the first little bit, you just have to like push through and get through because it's a slow growth, like, when you are starting a new account. If But you stay consistent and you do that method, you will grow a lot faster than just trying to post whatever you wanna do.
17:34And what have you learned about social media virality, uh, like, in the past few months that maybe you didn't realize a year ago, two years ago? Like, what what's been new or has everything kind of been the same for a while?
17:47I would say, obviously, content's always changing. Um, but I would say probably the importance of,
17:55like the three main hooks. So there's like visual hooks. So what you see in the first three seconds, there's written hooks, what you read in the first three seconds of a video.
18:05And then there's the verbal hooks, so what someone says in the first three seconds. So using all three hooks and optimizing those. And then also, it's something we call formats.
18:15So like if you look at short form content, subconsciously, you don't realize it when you're scrolling. But if you intentionally scroll, you'll see some people use like a whiteboard.
18:23We call that whiteboard format where they're like like maybe revealing things under paper on a whiteboard. Or we have like talking back and forth format where like two people might be dressed or one person is dressed up as two different people and they're like doing a little skit, talking back and forth. Or there's talking head where you're just talking straight to the camera,
18:41or there's audio b roll where there's like a trending audio and then there's text on the screen. But there's a ton of different formats and what I love to do is if I ever get a viral video,
18:53I will just recreate it in different formats, and it usually does very well. Which of those formats would you say is the most valuable?
19:00Like, if you could only be really exceptional at one and you wanted to use it to grow your business, what would you say is the most valuable? I would say the people who can consistently go viral and have the best personal brands,
19:13like, do talking form. Because I would say, like, if you look at an audio b roll video versus a talking form video, you always get more followers,
19:23more likes, more engagement, more leads through talking form videos even if they get less views.
19:31But I would say anyone who can go viral just talking to the camera, that's like the best because it's the least engaging.
19:39So if you can do well with it, that means, like, what you're saying is super valuable, and people don't need, like, all the ADHD things to, like, stay on your video. Yeah. That's interesting.
19:49I see, like, this big emphasis on short form content, particularly among business owners where they're like, oh, we need to have, like, the best edits, like and, like, the best graphics, etcetera. But does, like, does editing really go far in a video? No.
20:04I would say, like, if I had to rank things, I would say it's the hook, then the script, then the format,
20:17and then probably the editing. Interesting. Okay.
20:21And then of the hooks, you said visual hook, written hook, auditory hook. I would say it used to be verbal, but now it's visual.
20:31Because, I mean, people have always listened to things on mute. But now, like, if you're scrolling, there are so many people doing so many things and, like, so many visual hooks that you have to have a good one too if you want to make people stop. And what goes into a good visual hook?
20:45And, like, what really makes people stop scrolling on Instagram? Yeah. So I would say there's a ton of different visual hooks and, like, some people think, like, oh, I have to do something crazy, but you can literally it can just be, like, you sitting down in a chair, like, just a motion.
20:59Or, like, what we do a lot for clients is, like, if we're doing like a personal trainer, this is how my client went from one fifty to one thirty pounds in x y z time and like have actual like pictures of the clients before and after on the screen.
21:14So that could be a visual hook or like a above angle, so it's like the camera's up here instead of just like right here. So it doesn't have to be that complicated, but we just usually,
21:25um, when we're scrolling, if we ever see a new one that follows the five x rule, we'll just add it to our little sheet, but there's just a ton you can do. And for you specifically, because I would imagine when you do this type of service business, you can't teach someone all the factors that go into a video.
21:39Like, you can give them the script, the research, maybe an idea of the format, visual hook, etcetera. But, like, do you think about your clothes? Do you think about, like, your hairstyle?
21:49Do you think about, like, the tonality of your voice for certain things? Like, how many factors and variables are at play? Yeah.
21:56Like, I would say that's kind of the hardest part. Everyone, like, we kind of leave the tone and
22:05well, we'll ask clients if they want, like, their scripts to be funny or more professional, serious, like an authority, but tone and like how you dress I mean, tone's important, but like how you dress and stuff like that, like, it's probably things we care about less.
22:20But when we give a client a script, we basically, at the top, we have like three different sections. It's like the notes section, which gives a breakdown of like what format it is and how to film that format.
22:30And we have the script section and it's just we put the script in bullets. And how we have clients film this, we're like, look at a bullet and then say it to the camera
22:40and then look at the other bullet then say it to the camera and we'll cut out all the pauses. And then we have the caption, um, which is just the caption we put on the platforms.
22:49And then the subtitles, how important are like good subtitles for videos? Um, I mean, I would say back in the day, they were like more important.
22:59But now, like, it just doesn't really matter. I feel like a lot of people are tired of like crazy stuff, but it's important to have captions because so many people listen. Like, I think it's 80 to 90% of people listen to content on mute.
23:12So it's like you kind of have to have them. And there's also like the if you're on Facebook or Instagram, uh, particularly, a lot of people are international.
23:19So it's like easier for them to read English also. Mhmm.
23:23It's really interesting. As far as, like, gaining followers, like, what's the most amount of followers you've gained from a video? It's probably that one video I was talking about earlier.
23:32I wanna say we got a 100 k from that video, which is insane. That's like,
23:39that's one video out of two years worth of posts. So it's not common, but you do get those outliers if you post over a really long time period. What kind of content do you have to make to get more followers, would you say?
23:51Yeah. So that video was like pure education, you know, how to start your Instagram, grow it from scratch, and like step by step value, like from the beginning up until the end.
24:02But that was like so so valuable.
24:08So I typically, the videos that like are funny or memes, those will get you views, but they're not gonna get you followers. Like, people like to follow people who give them value.
24:19That's what I've found the most. So very valuable educational videos. And that's why I feel like for Mosey, for example, he's grown so quick because all of his stuff is so tactical, it's so actionable even though it's kind of like more niche.
24:31Like, he's not in like a Mr. Beast type of niche, obviously. So that's how you grow, especially when you're a business owner just providing so much value.
24:40And then how do you feel about the like, if I had to branch speaking content into some niches, it would be like motivational speaking content,
24:50entertainment, and then education. Like, I've noticed that sometimes when I post more motivational content, that will, like, grow in followers.
24:58And then same with education, like you mentioned. But entertainment, kind of like you said, doesn't really gain that many followers.
25:04But how do you think about brand? Because it's called personal brand launch, and it's kind of like you're helping people go viral, get more leads.
25:13But how do you think about, like, the brand portion of things? Yeah. That's a good question.
25:19This is one, like, I I don't know. I have, like I think my perspective on brand has shifted a lot,
25:27especially that I've grown more. Like, I'm a lot more protective about what I post now.
25:35I think before like, I was fine if I, like, posted funny posts and stuff, but now I just, like, wanna make sure everything is super valuable.
25:42But I think I kind of follow a similar ideology as for Mosey when it comes to that, where it's like, have you ever heard him give the, like, flower bouquet analogy?
25:53Mm-mm. No. It's basically like, you have a bouquet of flowers
25:57and every single flower, like, kind of makes a certain, like, what I like to phrase it is like you have your main niche, which is like, it could be fitness. And then you have like your sub niches, which is like weight lifting, cardio,
26:11maybe it's like a fun one where it's like, I don't know, maybe you make like protein desserts or something. And whenever,
26:19like, people think about you, they just associate you with all these things. I think that's just kind of how I see a brand. When someone looks at someone or a company they just associate it with certain things.
26:30I guess more tactfully with you, I see, like, all your videos are very colorful. Uh, you usually wear, like,
26:38a comfy looking hoodie with comfy looking sweatpants. Mhmm. Like,
26:42the captions look as though they're handwritten or something, uh, or the subtitles. Um, how do you think about, like, those things? Yeah.
26:50So, I mean, brand's all about consistency. And I think, really, with social media, as long as you show up as like you,
26:57you'll be just on brand all the time. So, like, sweatsuits, I have, um, a Nike sweatsuit in probably 15 different colors for summer and for winter,
27:07like, each, so probably 30. I have sweatsuits. I have a black sweatsuit, and like, I have five versions of their black sweatsuit.
27:14I wear it so much. Um, but that is on brand for me because that is just me. Do you just like get really cold or is Yeah.
27:21Milwaukee super cold each I'm cold all the time and I live in Wisconsin, so wow, I just said that totally like Wisconsin. Yeah. But, yeah, it's cold there all the time.
27:31But it's great. It's kind of like the weather here kind of reminded me of it, like, while the UV is like 10.
27:37That's what we've been getting lately, and it's been pretty nice. Interesting. So okay.
27:43Just congruency in what you do day to day with what the social media looks like. Is there any part of your life that you don't kind of show on social media as much?
27:54I mean, I I pretty much talk about most parts of my life, but I would say my relationship is probably like the least I talk about. But I still bring it up sometimes. And
28:03you were telling me that Ben also runs a business. I'm just curious to hear about his business as well. Yeah.
28:10So Ben started a lawn and landscape company when he was 13. Now he also has snow plowing for the winter. But, yeah, he is kind of like the same deal.
28:20He gets like reoccurring mowing clients, so it's like a good reoccurring revenue.
28:26He has three crews that just go out and do the stuff, and then he does like landscaping projects as well. So those can be like 10 to 25 k jobs.
28:35And then what's kind of your guys' routine or, like, what does your daily routine look like? I've seen you wake up at 3AM, have this really insane discipline.
28:45Yeah. So it's even worse now. For the past year, I've probably woken up at, like, 12AM every day
28:51because I'm a psychopath. But 12AM? Yeah.
28:55So I had so much work to get done before I came here. I woke up at 11:30 yesterday. 11:30PM.
29:03That's when you woke up. Yeah. So you're pretty tired right now.
29:06No. I'm good. I'm used to this.
29:07Chilling. Okay. Yeah.
29:09So basically, I will get up at 12AM. I will work for about, like, four to five hours, and then I wake Ben up, and then we go to the gym.
29:19We do, like, we'll lift. And then afterwards, we'll come back and he gets ready and leaves for work because obviously, a lot of his stuff's out on the field and he's not completely out of his business yet.
29:30He still helps his landscaping crew a lot. So he's pretty much gone until two.
29:36And then I'm home pretty much all day just I mean, in the morning, I'll do my deep work, and then during the day, usually do a lot more admin tasks, management, just kind of like what needs my attention at the moment.
29:49Because obviously when you're CEO, your days never really look the same. You just go where you're needed.
29:54But then around three
29:57is usually, like, when I'll start winding down. Ben will come home. He might have some, like, quotes later on,
30:03But I will just literally rot the rest of the day. I will read a book, I will watch TV, I'll hang out with Ben, um, just because I usually stop when I'm kind of like burnt for the day.
30:13So why do you wake up at midnight every day? Honestly, I've just found
30:19like, I've done a lot of different things and that's just what I found works for me. Even though it sounds psychotic, I'm so used to it. Because I've been waking up since like at least 3AM since I was 15.
30:31Just to get and get the real estate stuff done before school or at the time, like, when I first started, I was like the type who would read all the books before getting started. So I'm used to getting up early,
30:42but it's just the one time of day where nobody bugs me. Not even Ben, like, he's still sleeping,
30:49and I actually can just get everything done. And what does your deep work look like?
30:54Like, the first four hours of your day? It's just whatever is gonna grow the business the most. So it might be making SOPs, it might be making content for PBL, like scripting,
31:04or it might be hiring, like going through applications. It just depends on, like, what's going to grow the business the most at that moment.
31:12And like, what do you not outsource? Like, what are the things you do yourself? You said it's hiring SOPs, like, you actually go through and make the SOPs and you go through and hire every employee in the business?
31:23Not as much anymore. But I would say,
31:28with agencies in specific, if you don't use your agency, you have a problem.
31:33Like, you need to use what you are trying to sell. So a lot of that stuff
31:39like, we even have our clients, like, review their own scripts to make sure it's good. Like, I'll still review my scripts and stuff, make sure that's good, review, like, edits before they go out. But
31:50I would say for now, what I haven't outsourced yet is people creating the SOPs. Like I'm insane, it's like every single mouse click of a process, I will have written down.
32:00Just so it's not messed up and I have the written versions of every SOP and like also the video version of every SOP, like doing the process. So I have always done that, but I am
32:15in the process of hiring a director of operations, just someone who can do that. And what have been the most important hires in your business that have, like, really scaled it? Yeah.
32:24So I think with agencies, as of we were kind of talking about earlier quality. When you
32:31scale an agency, I think your success is based off of the talent you hire. And a lot especially because this industry is pretty new, like coming up in the past decade,
32:43it's really hard to find good people so you just have to have good pay and a good team that's motivating each other. But I would say, like, the most important part of having a successful agency that's good at scale is just hiring really good
33:00people with very niche skill sets. So like, ideation, for example, that's something I'm hiring for right now and it's just something I've been trying for I think two months, but this is normal for these like niche roles.
33:14Just putting out an application every single weekend to try and find someone. And like, you'll always eventually find someone, but you just it's all about volume and just getting enough applications and just finding that that one person.
33:27Is that ideation for your brand or for your clients? Clients. Because I do a lot of it right now, and that's why I work so much.
33:34So you're coming up with the ideas, so you're looking at the outliers and then kind of coming up with an idea based off that? Or what do you mean exactly?
33:42So we have, like, researchers who will research it, and then I'll just review the client's onboarding document. I'll review the research and I'll kind of create ideas. So I'll do like, okay, this is what I want the hook to be.
33:55This is what I want the value to look like of the video. Now here's also the format I want and then we'll give it to the copywriters. But it's super unsustainable,
34:05like, because we have so many clients. So that's why I also kinda have to get up. But
34:12we're definitely looking to get people, but I'm not gonna let that go until I find someone who's like me. I would guess that a bottleneck you might have, and correct me if I'm wrong I was such a bottleneck. The virality
34:23portion, like, for your clients to get really good results, I I would guess that the scripts that have done really well or the videos that have done really well, you've had at least some involvement in those particular scripts.
34:35You reviewed them, is that not the case? No. It is.
34:39Because right now, I'm in almost every script set, like, that we have that's going out. And, like, I think something as a business owner I've had to learn is like, I mean, I was out of the business for a while, but then I saw results drop after I got out. So I had to go back in and now we have to hire.
34:55Like, I just have to be more intentional with hiring. But because we're missing that person right now, I'm still in every single day. So that's 30 scripts for each client a month?
35:04It's either fifteen, twenty, or 30. Okay. So
35:0920 and then 400 clients, that's what, 8,000 scripts a month? Yeah.
35:14It's like super unsustainable. And do you, like, go through all those? So basically,
35:19for the ones I can't do ideations on, I review after they're done, and I'll just make replacements if that's needed. Because like our copywriters are so like good at ideation, but like, obviously, I've been doing it like the most.
35:31I have the brand. So yeah.
35:34But if they have the hooks and they have the client, like, they can still make great scripts and then you just make some adjustments after. But I have one other person on my team, Jane, I love her.
35:44She is like the same skill set as me and she helps a ton on the reviews and she's the only other person I trust to like do that without my review after.
35:55But both of us combined, like, we are both at our breaking point. Yeah.
36:01I mean, it sounds like a what I'm impressed with with your business is that you haven't gotten shiny object syndrome and been like, let me just drop a course.
36:11Let me drop something that everyone can buy a million times. And I'm sure you think about it every day when you're reviewing all these scripts, but, like, what's kind of kept you from doing that, like, looking at other options? I know if I, like, I wanna make this service like perfect before I ever do something else.
36:27Like, wanna make it I just wanna be the go to short form content, you know, creation agency for business owners.
36:36And I just will not stop until that's the case. And that just means literally refining the product and making it better every single day. And until I feel like it's perfect, I probably won't do anything else.
36:46And I'm very, like, picky. Like yesterday, I got
36:52it's kind of an odd situation, but Adobe,
36:56they, like, wanted to become part of, the editing part of the service. But I just said no, even though it was a lot of money and it create I mean, Adobe's great.
37:08But I just like, I don't want anyone to have any like control over it. Like, I just want it to be mine and I just wanna make it perfect.
37:15But I don't want like any other service or product I could make to like take my time away from doing that. So what are you guys using to edit the content?
37:24Uh, we like
37:29Da Vinci, Premiere Pro. I mean, we use a mix of different ones, but like,
37:34basically, we have editors are are like our we have out of like all of our ten ninety nines, editors are the most.
37:43Because like editing is so time consuming and until AI can like fully do it, we still need a ton. And we just basically rank our editors like, okay, they can do basic edits, they can do medium edits, or they can do like really good ones.
37:57And then whatever, like, just have like a for we have a ton of different editing styles and when a client comes on with us, they can choose from like a bunch. Or they can find one off like on their own and then we'll just do it.
38:10What's the most common editing style people request? Is it like, oh, I want it to look like Iman Godsey or Alex Ramosy? Or It used to be Alex, but I think it kind of went out of style.
38:19Like, his old old captions. Yeah. Yeah.
38:21Yeah. If you know what I'm talking about. With the emojis and stuff.
38:23Yeah. But now I would say a lot of people actually go for more simple captions.
38:28Like, you know what Leila does where it's like kind of like on her on her talking head videos, she just looks like does very simple captions and people like little white ones. Okay.
38:37Yeah. But we also have like a lot of other ones too that people like that are more complex.
38:43But I wouldn't say it's like they're not like I can't think of anyone who like would
38:53like, it's not like a Hermosy style. It's not one of the big ones, but they're just like
38:59kind of like their own customized ones that we get a lot as well. But yeah, they'll pick one of those and then we will get the we have like all the editing styles ranked and then we'll just give, you know, a basic edit to a basic editor.
39:13And kind of like medium edit to medium editor and get the idea. But we just have the editors use whatever they like and as long as it looks like the reference, then it's fine.
39:24So for someone who maybe can't afford your service or, like, you couldn't work with them for whatever reason, what employees would they need to hire?
39:33What process would they need to do for growing their personal brand? Let's say they wanted to do just fitness educational content.
39:41Mhmm. Yeah. So basically, what I would do is obviously make your Instagram account.
39:47Um, but I would say the first thing is I explained the research method earlier. So I would do that, but I would also do one other research method, which is you go on Instagram, go to the explore page, you hit the search bar,
40:00and then you just type in your niche. So if it was like dog training, you just type in dog training or you could create like I like to create like five to 10 keywords that relate to that. And then
40:11once you search it, you click the reels tab, and I wish I could show you this visually, but then you will just come across literally like the most viral hooks in that niche. And
40:23if you like scroll on that reels tab after you do that keyword research, you wanna look through all the videos that have over a million plus views and just save the hooks that you would use. And then typically, what I do is I just make sure they follow the five x rule and then I'll add them onto a spreadsheet.
40:38And then those are like, I mean, Instagram SEO kinda sucks, but like It really does. Yeah.
40:45Yeah. I mean, TikTok is really good compared to Instagram, but I don't like to use TikTok as a reference because Instagram is harder to go viral on. So like, I like to use Instagram
40:54for ideation better. But, yeah, that's probably the research I would do along with, like, finding the top 10 to 20 creators.
41:02And then after, basically basically what I do for clients, I would just write probably a batch of, 15 to 30 scripts
41:10with, you know, the viral hooks, the viral topics, but with your own this is so important. You don't wanna copy viral videos. That will just make you look like a fraud.
41:18So you wanna add your own, like, value in the meat of the video. So your own actionable advice. So like if you're a dog trainer, you wanna show people how to teach their dog step by step how to sit or, like, I saw this one girl do, like, how I taught my dog to shut the door, and I thought it was, like, the coolest thing.
41:35And she gave you the step by step advice. I hate or I don't hate, but, like, when people give like fluff, it just never works.
41:43I mean, it doesn't never work, but it just is a lot harder to go viral when you're giving fluff than opposed to like actionable value that people can actually take away right away. So write scripts with your own expertise and experience
41:57on how to get, you know, people x y z result. Make 15 scripts. Use different formats.
42:03Test everything out on your account. So if you are starting from scratch, I like to try a bunch of different topics, a bunch of different formats in your niche, and then you post like 50 to a 100 videos. Try and post every single day.
42:15And then basically, after 50 to a 100 videos on a new account, you can kind of see, okay, what worked better, what formats worked better, what hook hooks worked well, what topics worked well, and then you just start doubling down on, you know, those hooks, formats, and topics. And you just keep doing that over and over again, and you will grow over time.
42:35I wanna ask about two things. The first is the fluff portion. Can you define
42:39what you see as fluff in most content? Because this is something I have to help a lot of people with when they ask me for advice on their videos. But I'm not just cutting things that aren't valuable.
42:48I'm cutting things that aren't valuable and things that aren't interesting. Like, both of those two things. But how do you think about it?
42:55When I think of, like, fluff
42:59let's see. Like, fluff to me and, like, I'm pretty picky.
43:03Like, I like things to be really specific. But if I'm a personal trainer, I'm giving advice, I'm like, okay, walk every day, lift every day, eat healthy,
43:13but like actionable value would be walk 10 k steps every single day. Do this exact four day split and then like have them show the split.
43:23Or like, for calories, like, use this TDEE calculator online, subtract two to 300 calories,
43:31that's your calorie deficit. Eat this every single day. Eat one gram of protein per pound of body fat.
43:36Like, it's very clear what they need to do. And like, they wanna save that stuff because it's actually helpful. So it's like, that's what I would say fluff versus real value is.
43:47Interesting. So just be as specific as possible and Yeah. As helpful as possible.
43:51How about when you're telling like a story? Like, you were to tell us Oh. A story of Mhmm.
43:56How you did this at 20 years old, like, what do you consider fluff in that instance? So, yeah.
44:03I like consider educational content and storytelling content completely different. Okay. But basically, in our client scripts, if they have the 20 scripts package, we will have four storytelling scripts
44:14and 16 educational. I think storytelling, they do well, but like,
44:19it's there's it gets it can get repetitive, so we don't like to do as much. But people love, like, my story videos
44:28or just like how they grew like how they grew or their personal transformation. Yeah. People love that stuff.
44:33And I wouldn't consider like that stuff fluff if you're telling a story, but like educational content is where you see the fluff. But storytelling is completely different.
44:43I think you can be a lot more like, as long as you're vulnerable and, you know, there's a good payoff at the end of your story, it could do really well.
44:51Because it's definitely been more popular lately. If you could give us an example, like, what's a story you find yourself telling all the time, like, when you meet people? Like, here's how I grew this business.
45:02It's the one I already told. Yeah. It's like the
45:05because people always ask, like, oh, how do you get into this? So I would just tell them, like, oh, I started in real estate, da da da da, posted content, did well, got into this. So, yeah.
45:17And why do you choose like those parts to include? Is there like any thought to that? I
45:22would say mainly because they're all just vital to telling the story. Like, I got into real estate and because I saw all these other big real estate people, like, I want to start posting on social media.
45:33It did really well, and I was like, wow, real estate sucks. This is fun. I'm gonna do this instead.
45:39Yeah. I I did notice how you crafted the story. I was like, it's very interesting, like, the part she left out, but it's the most crucial thing needed to understand it well.
45:49Another thing I wanted to ask about with your clients. So you do 15 to 30 videos for them a month.
45:55Do you ever think that if you did, like, a couple videos for them, like the more experienced one, if you just did, like, four really good videos, that would be better? And just, like, how do you think about quality versus quantity in general? Yeah.
46:08I think about that all the time. I would say, like, I try to treat the 30 videos
46:16like I was doing four, if that makes sense. Like, I don't like to give a client a script unless I feel proud of it.
46:24And that makes it so much more time consuming. But I do think, like, if you really did just hone in on four, I think personally,
46:34I wouldn't like that because you're not testing as much, you're not seeing what works as much. So I think it might actually be worse.
46:41Because if you can just test a bunch and then just study what works and then double down on that, like, I think that's way better. And when do you ever, like are there any videos that you put a significant amount of time into that it's been worth it, or is it usually just not worth it? I would say a like, every single one of my videos, there's so much time into it.
46:59But I think the videos I spend the most time are when I find, like, real life examples of the point I'm trying to make, because like you have to go find the case studies and leave really good editing notes and stuff. But it always makes it worth it because
47:15people get the visual and they can actually see it and it's not just like words they're hearing. So I would say it's worth it. And then tell me about some of your clients that you've worked with.
47:22What have been like some crazy success stories? Does any
47:26I'm guessing this is the case, but do any of your clients make like significantly more money than you from the service? Yeah. So there's one in particular.
47:36There was this one I was nervous to take on, his name's Carl, and he's like an older gentleman, probably like 65.
47:44He has like 10 kids, but that's not relevant. I just think it's cool.
47:49But, yeah, he is in the franchise niche. And the reason I was nervous was because
47:55I don't know anyone in the franchise niche. I tried to do research and like there wasn't really anyone, so I was like skeptical, but I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, really really try on these and like I basically just researched other niches and tried to convert it to his.
48:10And franchising is Like, he basically is a franchise broker. So he works with like a ton of popular franchises and then he
48:19works with clients and tries to get them or like suggests certain franchises that would work for them. And if they start it, he gets a commission. So like Wendy's Chick fil A or like what kind of franchises?
48:28Yes. Like those, but not Chick fil A. They were like very like in house kind of and very selective.
48:34But like, I'm trying to think, like Great Clips, Molly Maid. There are some restaurants,
48:40but I can't really think of off the top of my head. But then basically,
48:45what we did is because he was starting from scratch too. But we looked at like a ton of different niches as I said, did research and then converted them over to his. And we did like videos like
48:57or Burger King or like Krispy Kreme or Dunkin' and like just like those comparison videos.
49:04I would say, well, we posted like three months worth of content and we were like under a 100 followers and I was like, what the heck? But it's also just kind of part of having a new account.
49:14So then on our forthing a new account. So then on our fourth month, we got our first viral video. I think like 9,000,000 views,
49:22and it was breaking down how much you make owning a McDonald's franchise, I think. And we took that exact video script and format and then just replaced the restaurant in it
49:35and it just kept going viral and viral. So then we also,
49:40um, took that original viral video and we made it into an audio b roll video and that one got like 10,000,000 views. And we have just kind of started replicating that format and then like pinning two different
49:54franchises against each other to show you what makes more money and like those three things consistently go viral for him. So now that we have that, we just every single month script videos that are different versions of that with a CTA that leads to, you know, his like franchise broker stuff.
50:10So yeah. And he like basically makes like 60 k for every single person he gets, and he gets like hundreds of leads.
50:18So And what does he do exactly? Like, he'll take someone and be like, you'd be good for this franchise and Yeah.
50:24Go for the deal? Or So like his target audience is people who are in nine to five, like, manager positions and could just manage her own franchise.
50:32Do you know how much she's doing roughly? No, I don't. But I know, like, sometimes he'll just text me like,
50:38oh, we got five deals this week. That's like 100 k.
50:43Yeah. Oh my gosh. Jeez.
50:46And then has there been any other success story that stands out to you, like, someone that took a while to grow?
50:54I would honestly say I mean, I have some that, like, grew really quick, some that took a while. But I would say another person that took a really long time was myself. When I first started my well, I originally I have like a personal account and then a business account,
51:08and I started posting the social media stuff on my personal account, and it just like wasn't aligned with my business content, so it didn't do well. And you'll find that when you try to post a new niche on a profile you already built up surrounding a niche, it just doesn't work.
51:24So I started a different business, Instagram, for personal brand launch and I think three months it was the same thing, just like
51:33under a 100 followers posting every day. And then the fourth month, I got my first viral video.
51:40And same deal. It's just the same thing that happens every time when you make a new account.
51:44Takes a while, but you'll eventually get your first viral video and then you just double down on that. That is how you grow a page. Is there anything ultra specific
51:53that feels like a hack on social media? Like, anything with trial reels?
51:58Anything you're doing with testing on TikTok? Like, I know a lot of people do multiple pages for testing with different types of hooks, like a bunch of crazy stuff. But is there anything like that that you've looked at recently?
52:09I wouldn't say recently, but I think for a long time, we were one of the not the first agency, but we were one of the, I guess, first short form agencies to really take research serious.
52:21Like, we have always been doing like ten to twelve hours of research a month to like every single month too. It's not like just the first month.
52:29And like, we just do that religiously so we can study what works and we also just double down on what works. And researching and doubling down on what works for that person, it just does wonders.
52:39That's like all you need to do. It's funny you say this. I mean, I'll probably cut this out, but maybe not.
52:45Just like a lot of the secret sauce of why this podcast is done well is because I noticed I was like, I asked all the other big podcasters because I kinda knew them. It's like, how much research do you do, like, to craft the clips ahead of time? And they're like, oh, no.
52:59We don't even think of it like that. I'm like, oh, well, you can just find a guest. Like, let's say you went on another podcast, had a viral clip,
53:06just take the exact same hook and get them to retell the story differently. No one does that. Can you believe that?
53:11It's been a major attribution to any views I've gotten on this podcast, but I definitely agree with you that research
53:19goes a long way. And for for YouTube specifically, do you like I I
53:25think YouTube and short form can be really similar, but people will find like outliers on like even smaller pages and then, like, use those titles and thumbnails.
53:35Do you ever do that? 100%. Yeah.
53:36I think that's so important. Definitely. Uh, Yeah.
53:39The thumbnail outliers is where this all started. Like, view stats by mister beast has been super helpful, um, for coming up with stuff.
53:47But Is that like so on Instagram, we have like something called sort feed. And it's like it like will automatically sort someone's videos on their profile. Oh, that's maybe my hack then.
53:57Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
53:58So there's this thing, it's called the sort feed extension. It used to be free. It's like it turned like $40
54:03for like, it's a lifetime. Like, you'll get it for your life if you pay $40, and it's so worth it. But if you go on someone's Instagram page and you click reels,
54:12you can click the little puzzle piece in the corner of your screen, and you can basically select, you know, a hundred, five hundred, all of their reels, and it will sort them from mostly spiral. We use this.
54:22Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
54:23Did you make a video about this? Yeah. That's why I use it for sure.
54:26I use it every day. Yeah. It's awesome.
54:31But is, like, that what ViewStats is for YouTube? ViewStats is a little more interesting,
54:37um, but that tool is really helpful because no one has built anything for Instagram that can sort the videos. Mhmm.
54:43But then and TikTok recently came out with a thing where you can sort people's profiles by most liked or most viewed, etcetera. But ViewStats, like, you can search
54:54like, a good example, I had this thumbnail of a guy holding up a hoodie, and it said $500,000,000
55:01a year, um, because, like, he has a brand called Comfort Clothing that makes 500 I million a have, like, literally seven of their sweatsuits. That's interesting.
55:10I was wondering if you wore those because, like yeah. I wear Nike for, like, videos, but I have a ton of theirs. Yeah.
55:16Comfort's nice. But Mhmm. Essentially, we took that thumbnail and then post it on view stats, and it will show other things of people holding up hoodies or holding up T shirts with text on them.
55:26Mhmm. And then we kind of reorganized the thumbnails based on the outliers. Or if you, I don't know, search certain keywords like body fat, it'll show all the outliers for body fat, then you can make it specific to a podcast.
55:40But, yeah, I mean, if I like, I use it for short form content too because if you go on YouTube, find Outlier, you can kind of take that as a visual hook. Mhmm.
55:48You know what I mean? Yeah. I do that too, actually.
55:50I'll find, like, those on YouTube where they have, like obviously, they went very viral for, like, a small account, and we will use, like their thumbnails can be really great visual hooks, or like their titles can be good verbal hooks or written hooks. How
56:04important is the thumbnail for Instagram? Not important. I mean, like, yeah, people might see it on the explore page and click it, but like,
56:11I've never like intentionally made a thumbnail in my life. And then so you're 20. You make $700,000
56:16a month. How do you invest this money? Yeah.
56:20I invest it into index funds. Boring answers are the best. Index funds.
56:27Gotcha. Just and that's it? Nothing else?
56:30I mean, obviously, like, I don't like, I don't take out much money from the company. I take out me and Ben split our expenses.
56:39And it's like 2,500 a month each for each of us. And then I also take out 5 k
56:47to invest in index funds because if I invest until I retire, which I'll never retire, but if I invest until, like, I don't know, let's say, like, 65, then I will have 25,000,000.
56:58If I just keep investing my $5 into index funds. And I could double that and I could do $10 a month and I'd probably retire with like double if I start now. So it's boring, but it works.
57:10Yeah. So okay. That's pretty frugal, I would say, to have 5 k But I live in Wisconsin.
57:16So Yeah. Yeah.
57:18Just you see all these other, uh, 20 year old millionaires, like, doing all this crazy stuff, traveling the world, spending 100 k at the club or on villas, etcetera. Um, has that just never, like, aligned with you or anything?
57:31Like Yeah. Is there anything that you purchased that was material that was a bit expensive? Honestly, never.
57:37I mean, like, besides, like, the investment properties. But I drive, a mediocre car,
57:45live in a mediocre ranch. I don't know. I buy, like, Instacart groceries.
57:52I don't know. We do have a nice, like, gym membership, but that's pretty much it.
57:57Yeah. I think I will I mean, I don't know why, like, I've been investing the same amount even when we made, like, 50 k a month, so I just need to up that. But, yeah, I don't really care
58:08about that. So I do want a nice house one day, but I think part of me is also just like, wow, that's like what I want is probably really expensive.
58:16What keeps you from getting a house right now?
58:22I don't know. I think it's just like I've never bought something big and nice like that for myself, so I think, pardon me, just
58:29isn't ready. Yeah. I'm I'm big on not getting a house right now, uh, because it just seems like less convenient for the business, you know?
58:38Because if you're, like, in an apartment, all the things are taken care of, all the amenities. Uh, like our place, for instance, we have a gym, uh, that's like, you walk out of our door and then it's the door to the gym. So I'm just like all about efficiency.
58:51She really wants a house, though. But no crazy lavish expenses.
58:57What's like something you've purchased that, like, since you've had some money that's been helpful for, like, investing in you? You know?
59:05Like, walking treadmill Oh, yeah.
59:08Like, chef, personal chef, like, anything like that? I will say, like, once we started making money,
59:16we never shop. Like, it's all Instacart, DoorDash, Uber Eats.
59:20I will say we do because like, some of that stuff, the business will pay for. Also, all my sweatsuits, my walking treadmill for sure, I walk.
59:28So I like to walk, I like to get it over with. I'm all about getting things over with. That's what I think about.
59:33So I'll walk four miles right when I get up when I'm working just to get it done. And then probably our gym membership.
59:42We do want a home gym. So that'll probably be like our next big thing.
59:47So that'll probably be like a couple tens of thousands. But, yeah,
59:52it's all I can really think of. Were you guys athletes in high school? Or were you just Yeah.
59:56I mean, I wasn't. I've always like went to the gym. I think I started freshman year and I always just did like either a four or six day split.
60:05And then Ben in high school, he wrestled a ton. He did like club and then he also did school. I don't know if you guys are familiar with, like, Ben Askren, but he's, like, the only big wrestler from Wisconsin,
60:19but he has, like, his academy. So Ben, like, went there and so he was really good at wrestling and went to state every year, and then also football.
60:28He loved football, but not like enough to ever go to like college for it or anything or make it worth it to go to college. But, yeah.
60:37So he always did sports and then now we just go to the gym together. And what's kind of your mission or goal with all of this?
60:45Long term, I really do like what Alex and Leila do. But like, where they obviously, they're in private equity, and they work with a lot of businesses and help them grow
60:56and invest in them. Potentially, that would Ben, but
61:00I don't know. Like right now, we're just really loving growing our own companies, but I know I probably want to have all, like, his business and my business and other businesses under a portfolio in the future.
61:12That's probably five years from now we'll start. So you plan on doing the exact business you're doing right now for five more years?
61:21I can't promise that, but like I'll for sure own it for a long time. But I don't wanna be doing like daily what I'm doing right now in five years. I wanna grow.
61:30I wanna get out of that. I want to I feel like
61:34I went really hardcore back into working in the business and I need to get back out of it once we get the right people. So that's like my goal within the next six months that,
61:44yeah, long term, I don't wanna just do this forever. I see bigger things.
61:50I wanna be a billionaire. I do. I think that's just like a goal because I know I can do it.
61:55Not even for like the money because obviously I don't even buy stuff now, but just to prove to myself that I can. Okay. Would you sell the business you have right now?
62:04I know there's interesting multiples on, uh, service business.
62:08Is it like two to three x of yearly revenue? Or Agencies, it's six to nine. It's six to nine.
62:15Guess it's recurring. Okay. I didn't think about that.
62:18Yeah. If you have contracts. I was thinking of coaching businesses for some reason.
62:21That's a little less, um, that's actually servicing. I actually learned that at the workshop yesterday. Six to nine x.
62:27Okay. So what would be your goal revenue with this business before you sold it? Oh, I wanna build this to at least, like
62:35I wanna sell it for if I did, for at least a 100,000,000. Yeah. I don't know, like
62:43I don't I think the money excites me less than, like, being the best for short form content for business owners.
62:51But I know if we are, we'll just make a ton of money. Interesting. And what do you think would
62:57aside from removing yourself from the day to day, uh, stuff, like, do you think would 10x the business? Just time. I mean, it's already growing so quick.
63:06Like, after that video in August, we were growing
63:11like, we grew, I think, like, 200 k just that month in reoccurring revenue. And, like, with social media,
63:19you just have the power to do that with your business. So we can grow it
63:25fairly quickly, but to 10x it, yeah, it's just time and consistency. Have
63:30you thought about moving to Puerto Rico with that much cash flow? Why? Puerto Rico, I learned this recently from a guest.
63:37Uh, it's the only place in The US you can move to, uh, like, keep your residency and you pay I think it's 3% income tax and then Oh.
63:480% capital gains. Maybe it's 6%, but I don't know what it is in Wisconsin, but it'd probably be like 40%, 50% a year goes to the IRS. Yeah.
63:58It's 40%. Puerto Rico's 3%. Wow.
64:03Yeah. I I some really wealthy people live there.
64:06It's a nice place. I would recommend checking it out. Um, there's, like, this place called Dorado there, and it's
64:11do you know the Ritz Carlton? Like Yeah. Um, it's essentially, like, built by them,
64:17and you just basically live in this, like, Dorado bubble of, like, all these nice amenities, etcetera. And it's not too expensive to live there. It's fairly cheap.
64:27And, yeah, you don't pay any taxes. Pretty interesting. Yeah.
64:30I like my my quarterly tax bill is, like, multiple hundreds of thousands. It sucks. Yeah.
64:35LA's pretty rough too. Yeah. I can imagine.
64:38Definitely wanna get out of here. But I'm, like, big on if
64:42I think I can make more money in Los Angeles than, like, a place like Texas or Las Vegas at this stage just because Mhmm. Primarily because I host a podcast and a lot of people come through here. Yeah.
64:53Um, people usually come through Vegas, Los Angeles, and Miami, but the other parts of the country, they don't really come to. But someone told me I could move to Puerto Rico and fly people out and it would be cheaper. And I was like, this is true.
65:05I wanted to ask about ManyChat in general because you're kind of one of the first people to use it super effectively. Like, uh, what's your ManyChat system secret sauce on that?
65:15It actually reminds me like, this is random, but I've gotten like reached out to by ManyChat to work with them a lot.
65:22But I just like, literally anything that will take me away from PBL will like, I just won't do it. But anyway, I use them because I love them, but I never like will do affiliates or anything. But ManyChat,
65:33like, do you want me to break it down just in case? Yeah. Yeah.
65:36For sure. So basically what ManyChat is is when people say as like a call to action on Instagram,
65:43comment the word cake and I'll send you, you know, whatever. So it's when you like share like lead magnets with people or, you know, freebies, landing pages about your service,
65:54And it's like the best way to get leads from Instagram, because people will just comment that word and then they will get automatically sent a DM from you to that link. How do you use it differently than other people,
66:06like in a more effective way? Like, is there anything like in the funnel specifically? Yeah.
66:10So I would say, like, I
66:15I think a big part of, like, why I grew really fast during some periods is because, like, sometimes I just use ManyChat a lot more and I'll create a lot more freebies. And especially when you create a really, really good freebie that, like, was clearly, like, it took you a lot of time and it's not just something that you can make in ChatGPT
66:33or something you can, like it's a Google search away. Like, those are so valuable. Mean What's an example of one of yours?
66:39Yeah. So I think one of them that took me so long was it's called in a thousand it was like it's a freebie with a thousand hooks. So it's like a
66:48thousand videos that follow the five x rule that are like good educational content examples from business owners. And then like, those hooks templatized so people can use them themselves.
66:59So, like, it has the link to the viral video and then the template templatized hook for a thousand. And that, like, actually making that probably taught me the most about content I've ever learned. But, yeah, that
67:12took probably like three hundred hours to make because you had to scroll like I had a bunch saved of reels I love and a huge bank of those, but I was super selective about what I put on the freebie.
67:24I probably scrolled through like 20,000 videos to find, you know, the other like 700 I needed. That's a really good one because I saw people
67:32after you did that, uh, start selling ebooks of that. Yeah. Probably mine.
67:37Literally copied and pasted. That makes sense. Yeah.
67:40That's the thing about a lead magnet is people can just monetize it differently than you and steal it. Mhmm. Because you're giving it away for free.
67:47Do you run any ads? No. Yeah.
67:51Jesus. Sorry. Yeah.
67:54Do you just like like, what's the I I I might cut this out, but just like my genuine curiosity is like, what's keeping this from, like, being bigger? Like, do you have too many leads and you can't, like, fulfill on all of them?
68:08It's really just about me getting out. Because, like, right now, like, I will always work as much as needed to get it done, but, like, there's only so much I can work.
68:19So Why don't you charge more? I could. I just I don't I don't know.
68:25I mean, I raise my prices quite frequently. So I've raised them probably they probably doubled in the past
68:34six months. So it's 6 k now? Or No.
68:38I actually, I wanna say a year. So it used to be like half of what it is now. But also, we've built out the service a little bit more.
68:46So like we like to do for example, like we'll do set up ManyChat for you. And we had to add, like, customer success managers.
68:55So we added in, like, milestones, checking calls because that's what people really wanted. So it's built out more, so we also had to charge more.
69:02But the price has probably doubled in the past year. But, like, I don't know. I feel like we're at a good price point, but I know I could charge more if I wanted.
69:11Interesting. Yeah. Because I I tried to sell, like, a similar thing.
69:15I just tried to sell the coaching aspect. Um, like, I was trying to charge people, like, 70, 80, like, 90 k packages over, like, six months.
69:25Uh, because I had a lot of success coaching people in the past. Uh, but essentially, what I realized was the price wasn't an issue for them, but what they wanted was services.
69:35So I was like, I could literally sell, like, services similar to yours for, like, 80 k. So I just like I think I got on a call with one of your sales reps way back just to see what the pricing was. And I was like, it's only $3,000?
69:48There hasn't been anyone that you've sold like a super high ticket package to? No. I like anytime someone comes to me for like coaching or
69:56anything like, hate calls. I don't do calls.
70:00Like, even this is like wild for me. So I try to do calls as little as possible and like I just I just like helping people like do the grunt work and the service and like,
70:13I feel like with business owners too, they want people just to do it for them. Exactly.
70:17Yeah. So that's why the done for you model works so well. But I think we will probably raise our prices again soon just because
70:25I do like the clientele that we get with a higher price point. They kind of get it more. And
70:31I love the people who just like trust us to do what we do best and like don't, I guess, like try to redo all the work.
70:39Like I said earlier, like everyone thinks they're a great marketer. Like, they just trust us. They trust the research we've done.
70:45They trust the scripts, and they just trust the process. Do you have any churn, or do you have, like, any failures? I'm assuming it's like a little bit, but not much.
70:53I mean, every agency has churn. And I think with content, organic content, it's
71:00something that takes time. So like, when we have people churn, it's because of two reasons. One, they just don't wanna wait.
71:08But like, remember how I was telling you, it took Carl and myself three months to get our first multimillion view viral video? Well, those changed our accounts and our businesses and our lives, but most people can't wait three months
71:23with like when you're starting a new account and you need to consistently post. When you have like a bigger account, we can just study what already worked for you and do research based off that, like, can grow you faster. But if you're starting scratch from scratch, like, people
71:35who aren't willing to wait, they might churn. And then also,
71:40like, the only part of our service that isn't done for you is the filming because it's their personal brand. So people who just don't end up filming. Have you thought about doing the filming part for them?
71:51Or is that pretty logistically tough? I mean, because it's their personal brand, like, it just wouldn't make sense. Like, because it's more so, like, them just not wanting to be on camera.
71:59Or I guess sometimes it's not it's them not having the time. But like, yeah, some people just, like,
72:07can't can't film. They just don't like it. Interesting.
72:11I'm guessing it's a lot on the iPhone. I've ran into a lot of people who are like, oh, like I need someone like a video crew around me all the time. I'm like, I don't think you would do all Yeah.
72:19The film all my stuff on my phone. Yeah. Yeah.
72:22Even my VSLs, like What I'm so impressed by you, just from personal perspective, is, like, I have the worst shiny object syndrome ever, uh, which is why I did a podcast because it was like like, how can I be
72:36like, find out about people's businesses, like, new ones all the time just because I crave, like, this novelty? But,
72:44like, it's just so impressive that you just dialed in on this one thing and take nothing. Like, where do you get that from, you think? Yeah.
72:51So I feel like there's like I feel like every entrepreneur has ADHD, but I feel like there's two types where it's like one's kind of like shiny object and then the other one is like hyper fixation. And like, I'm the type of person where will eat the same things every day, I'll wake up at the same time every day, I will watch the same shows over and over again because I know them.
73:10I'll read the same books over again. Like I am just so used to like I don't know, I hyper fixate a lot and I think that's why.
73:17But also, it scaled so big, so now I like I don't have any desire to like start anything else from scratch. I mean, the future, yeah, that business would have been.
73:28But What kind of people do you look at for just general business advice, for mentorship, uh, for social media, understanding virality?
73:37Like, who are you looking to there? Yeah. I would say,
73:42like, business wise for Mozy, obviously. And then for
73:49social media, a lot of it is just, like, consumption, but scrolling intentionally versus, like, subconsciously.
73:58And then there's this one girl on Instagram. She's like or on YouTube.
74:05She's kind of like a hidden gem. I feel like she does not get the credit she deserves, but she breaks down specifically YouTube content so well, but a lot of it transfers over to Shorts.
74:15Her name is April Lynn Alter, and you should check her out. Like,
74:20she's insane. Like, her videos are so value packed, and it, like, motivates me to do the same with short form content. Like, when you watch her video, it's like the most valuable thing you've ever seen.
74:29I can't explain it. You just have to watch it. Interesting.
74:32Do you have any, like, particular bits that you've learned from her, or is it really just how she crafts the videos themselves that you're looking at? Yeah. So I always
74:41understood the concept of outliers on people's page, but like she kind of came up with that term and she does the exact same thing on just YouTube. And like I'm like and she talks about formats on YouTube all the time and like all that stuff just transfers over to content.
74:58And like I've always understood, like, the concept of formats and stuff, but like, she kind of put it into actual terms. Mhmm. We were talking about shiny object syndrome a minute ago.
75:08Like, what have been some of your shiny object syndromes you've had in the past year with this business? Like, I know TikTok shop is really big. There's, like, softwares.
75:17You could do a course. Like, what have been some things that you've been tempted to do, but maybe just, um, you haven't really thought about it?
75:26I would say, like, I'm pretty loyal to like I'm like super loyal to everything, but this business I'm very loyal to. And like, I don't have too much of that, but I will say the only other thing I have kind of like wanted to do, but I know it will take time away is like starting a YouTube channel about short form content.
75:44There's one person I really like, his name's Callaway. And he's like, I say in like the past few months, he's recently started posting
75:52and he's already grown his channel like 60 k. And he does it really well. And
75:59obviously, April and Alter who I mentioned earlier, like she does it so well and like I would love to do that. And I know it would probably get a ton of leads as well, because like long form, you just build a different type of trust with people.
76:11So I think it would work really well, but I don't know. I just
76:16I've also been advised by people like, oh, no, you shouldn't do that. So I'm like, okay. How about organizationally?
76:22Like, um, what are some how do you organize your business to, like, scale? Yeah. So I would say, like, I know this is just so, like, scrappy, but Google Drive.
76:32We have all of our SOPs in Google Drive. We have all of our client scripts, our client videos, files. Like, every client gets a folder.
76:41It has their unedited content folder, their edited content folder, their scripts folder, and then like, we do stories for some people too, like
76:52and we'll just use ManyChat through that as well. So their stories folder, and it's just like very neat in there. And we'll have like,
76:59in those folders will be like May 2025, March 2025. So it just all kind of like lines up. But, yeah, pretty much Google Drive and then
77:09softwares that I use would be like Go HighLevel for a CRM, ManyChat, obviously. Pretty simple.
77:15Obviously, like Google Drive, Gmail. Do you have any advice for posting on social media? Like, uh, do you make sure that people are in The US?
77:22Do you make sure it's like an iPhone posted at certain times? Like that kind of stuff. Yeah.
77:26So all of our account managers, like, are US based because of that reason. Because it's just for the best if the IP is in The US.
77:37And then I used to be actually like a huge proponent of manually posting. Because I always did like different split tests with like different third party platforms, meta, and then manual, and manual always outperformed.
77:49But then a month ago, I redid it with meta and it was the same. So everyone on my team loves me now because they don't have to manually post anymore.
77:58That's good to know. My team will probably like that as well. Yeah.
78:01I do, like, never trusted it and I but like Meta, it was the same because I did it on my account too. I was like, okay. If I'm gonna try it, I'll do it on mine.
78:09And it was the same. Yeah. That was a big one for us on I can't remember what platform specifically didn't work when the IP was outside of The US.
78:17Or no. It was it was like we would use a VPN, but the SIM
78:22and the iPhone wasn't from The US. I think it was YouTube and TikTok, it didn't work well. But Instagram and Facebook was fine.
78:29But now I just make sure it's all posted in The US except except for Facebook and Snapchat Spotlight, I think. Mhmm. But are are you posting on Facebook pretty consistently?
78:39Yeah. But I have, like, the automation setup, so if it just, like if you post on your Instagram, it will automatically post on Facebook. Interesting.
78:48We we set it up to where it's differently posted, but it's because you can put a link in the Facebook caption Oh.
78:56Which is like a huge conversion thing. She actually taught me that.
79:00You know what? I'm gonna I'm just gonna write that down really quick. Just give me a second.
79:05So what exactly do you do? Yeah. So you can post on Facebook the link
79:09for whatever you're promoting. Like Okay. Say it's this podcast, I could post a clip of us, and I could put the cap the link directly in the caption for it.
79:17Okay. And that's like is that a reel or just a post? Either or.
79:20Yeah. Can do reels. Oh, wow.
79:22But it's crazy. To post that on on Instagram and be like, hey, guys. You can do this.
79:27Yeah. And then you can also do pinned comment on Facebook with the link in there, which is nice.
79:32You used to be able to do that on Shorts. But Can you get ManyChat to work on TikTok? That's new.
79:37Yeah. Yeah. As of, like, two months ago.
79:40I haven't set it up yet. I haven't been able to get it to work, but I know it would, like, crush if I could. Because no one's doing it.
79:47You know? That's what I was thinking about with TikTok shop too. I wanted to launch, like, a some low ticket product just to push my videos more.
79:55Because if you scroll on TikTok I don't know your opinion on TikTok versus Instagram. I don't like TikTok anymore. Don't like TikTok.
80:01I don't even use it. Yeah. Because you scroll and there's, um,
80:07it's only, like, edits because they're trying to push CapCut, um, like, CapCut templates, and then it's just TikTok shop ads, and then it's sponsored posts.
80:17And then occasionally, you'll see, like, a viral video or, like, a normal viral video that's not an ad. Mhmm. But Instagram, it's like there's no ads on it.
80:23There's no shop. A big one too is I think they silence so many this is just my opinion from having a predominantly male audience, uh, like, they silence so many conservative creators on TikTok and, like, anyone in the conservative politics side or, like, any, like, alpha masculine stuff that they all went to Instagram.
80:42So, like, TikTok is kind of girls, um, and then Instagram is kind of guys. I don't know.
80:48Agree with that. Yeah. But I think Instagram
80:51this isn't a word, but I think Instagram is like TikTokifying itself. I think the value of a follower has decreased because I think more people
81:00treat the reels tab like a for you page, and it's kind of
81:06getting, like, a little more like TikTok. I would think Instagram, your followers are way more valuable than they are on TikTok.
81:12Because on TikTok, people will follow you, but they only go on the for you page. So they won't, like, see you really ever again. But Instagram followers a little bit more loyal, but I think
81:22the reels tab is kinda turning into the for you page. Yeah. I agree.
81:26But I still think, like, Instagram all day, like, will change your business. So
81:32yeah. YouTube shorts sucks. My personal opinion.
81:35Don't know Actually, if can help just hit a 100 k on my personal YouTube. I can't wait to get my plaque. Nice.
81:42But, yeah, the YouTube algorithm is so weird. It doesn't make any sense. I do think too, like, I've seen people ruin their YouTube pages from posting Shorts and getting followers from Shorts that like, they're they won't watch their long form videos, they won't get pushed out.
81:56100%. Mhmm. I mean, me me, the big mistake I made with this podcast is that I had a crime niche, and then I didn't make a new channel.
82:04You probably saw that and were like, what is this guy doing? No. My dad so my dad was like, so he's like into crime?
82:09And I was like, no. He used to do that. Like, it's not like that anymore.
82:13Well, the goal of the podcast originally was to do famous crime cases Okay. Of people, but I couldn't get anyone. Mhmm.
82:21So I just Switched into business. So it just became business.
82:24I was like, I'm more more interested in business anyway. Mhmm. And then some videos started to work, but even my viral ones, like, have a couple podcasts with, like, a million views, and they
82:36all the viewers are old viewers from the Crime Channel, which is so strange. It's just people who so happen to watch that video. Mhmm.
82:44Yeah. YouTube algo is kind of strange. How important are Instagram stories?
82:48And do you have any, like, advice for Instagram stories? Yeah. So
82:53I like I love Instagram stories. I think they're the best way for leads. And like, you can be pretty salesy on stories because like, your
83:01most loyal followers are gonna be looking at your stories every single day. So if you post personal content and then also just social proof of results your product or service has gotten, before and after pictures not written,
83:14you will get leads if you just link your landing page or you put a ManyChat CTA on the story. So I'll post a story a day with
83:22some sort of social proof or before and after or lead results of clients. What's the most amount of money you've made from an Instagram story?
83:30Oh, it's like very like I would say 500 clicks a day is like what I get from stories to the landing page. And like, it's just so consistent.
83:41I I I don't know the exact metrics on what that converts into. We are setting up tracking right now, but that is one I should set up because I don't know.
83:50But it could be maybe 3,000, 6,000 a day if those clicks led to one client. Mhmm. Something like that.
83:57Okay. And then stories, do you have like an email list set up?
84:02Yeah. But I don't I don't really do it very often. I should do it like, I should be better.
84:07I have an email list. And for a while, I did it, like, weekly, but I just
84:13kind of stopped writing emails. Yeah. It it's something that someone was telling me to do because it's a valuable way to own your audience.
84:19It is. It is. And I know I should do it, and the Hermozy team always says to do it, but I
84:24I emails on the landing page? Mhmm.
84:27So for, like, some freebies, I will just link directly to, like, the freebie so they can get it right away. But for, like, the a thousand hooks one, they have to opt in. So that's where we will collect the emails.
84:39Did you were you the person that made the video that it was like it might have been someone else. It's like, here's how you set up a mini chat automation that makes them follow you first. No.
84:47I haven't done that. Gotcha. That was something I did recently that started converting crazy.
84:51I had no idea that was a thing. Is that a thing? Yeah.
84:55Okay. I'm writing this down too. Okay.
84:58Yeah. Wow. That's crazy.
85:00I did that on the Hormozi when he collab posted me, and I was gaining like That video got like 3,000,000 views. Right? The original account, it was gaining like it had a million in two hours, um, and he collab posted it, and then it started gaining me like 2,000 followers
85:17every, like, ten minutes. Wow. And then the account got banned that day.
85:20Oh. And I was like, jeez. That was so inconvenient timing.
85:23But Yeah. Yeah. I changed it.
85:25It used to be, like, collect an email, um, for the newsletter, but I was like, I'd rather have people follow me. Wow. I did not know that was a thing.
85:32So they just have to follow you and then they get the freebie or what? Yeah. It's like,
85:38make sure you're following me so I can send this to you and then Oh, so it's like, is it is it like a button they have to click or is it just like a message? And once they follow you, it will trigger. Yeah.
85:49Yeah. So it's if they don't follow, it goes, make sure you're following me so I can send it to you.
85:54And then they click just followed after they do it, and then they get it. And then if they already follow you, they get it right away? Yeah.
85:59Okay. So that is so genius. Yeah.
86:03That's been pretty helpful for us. But do you have any just personal curiosity, like, for
86:10marketing a podcast with short form content? Like, how would you be thinking about it?
86:15I would do exactly what you're doing. Clipping, like, collabing with the people, because especially because of the, like, high caliber guests you have on.
86:23How do you feel about the, uh, I've been making it was from my old page, but I've been making some content that's like, uh, here's what Alex Ramosy taught me in a hundred and forty four minutes, or like, this is what I I flew to Vegas to see Alex Ramosy, and here's what he told me. Like, do you think those videos are important
86:39for getting people to care about long form content, or do you think just the clips is what you would think about? No. I would do a mix of both.
86:46But, I mean, how many videos of those have you done in the past and how have they done? I've done, like, five or six marketing videos, and they all
86:55got, like, several 100,000 or, like, a million views. Okay. If it's working, then just double down on it.
87:00Yeah. I I just I couldn't tell if, like I think about congruency a lot. Like, people see this thing and they want more of this thing.
87:07So I'm like, how does me talking about doing a podcast make them want to watch it, I guess, was my thought. But I don't know.
87:14I guess just a general question, like, do you make people care about you and, like, how do you build, like, a cult on social media? Yeah. I do.
87:22Or do you just think about it from, um, this is the video convert to this funnel? I would say, obviously,
87:30make valuable educational content. But like, if you look at Hermosy, for example, he like
87:37is just or Leila, like, they are just people you get to love their personality and like all their little quirks. And over time, like, you learn so much from them. And like, you just know them for certain things.
87:51And that's kind of like how you make people love you. Just showing your personal, like, your personality in your videos, just not being fake. Like, the sweatsuits and stuff, like, that's just my thing.
88:00And I think those little things just add up, but like, you have to you have to post for a long time and just have to be consistent with the things you do.
88:10But like, I think those little things that people notice that just is comes with like posting for years. Mhmm.
88:19But I like I'm trying to think of a good example. Like, there's this one girl in the fitness niche I love because in her videos,
88:28she talks about, like, volume eating, for example. But she'll, like, post, like or she'll add little, like, meme what are they called?
88:37Like, sound effects within her videos, and it just makes it so funny. And like, can just tell she's a funny person. She has like a very strong Irish accent,
88:45and like, I've only seen like three of her videos, but that made me follow her because I just kept seeing it. And I I don't really follow many people, and like just those little things just made me like really like her personality even though she was sharing the same advice as a lot of other people.
89:00Do you think those things are important for making money though? Like the having different elements of your brand?
89:07I talked to Alex about this and I was like, do you think it makes you more money that you talk about fitness and, like, your nutrition and what kind of clothes you wear? And he kind of hinted at, no, not really.
89:20Yeah. Because he used to post more about that stuff, but then he basically
89:26said he got the least amount of leads from that stuff. So I think really, obviously, focusing on your nation, your content, but adding those little things in within, like, videos about your main thing.
89:38So, like, I talk about Ben occasionally, but only in videos that primarily are talking about, like, what I do or business.
89:47Because I never want people to follow me just for Ben because that's not what I post about. How do you use AI in ChatGPT to go viral?
89:56I would say the biggest mistake is using it to write your scripts. We'll see people doing that a lot.
90:04You can use it for research. I think it's great for research, but using it to write your scripts, wouldn't recommend unless, like, you completely refine it after. But I think it's great for research or, for example, we'll do, like, clone videos
90:18where it's like you're comparing like I said, like with Carl, the two franchises and you're getting all the numbers and it's like, hey, you have Burger King, you have McDonald's, you need to like, how much do have to invest in each franchise up front? What's the first year of revenue look like?
90:32And all these things. You can just type in like a prompt, and it will just give you that information right away instead of having to manually research it, like, out of 50 different sites.
90:42So, yeah, it makes research a lot faster. How about you specifically for your business?
90:47Like, what's been the most useful way you've used AI? Mhmm.
90:52It might be a similar answer, but, like, how do you use it on a day to day basis? Yeah. So for copywriting research, but for editing, I think it's super it's super helpful.
91:01And I think I'm excited for it to get to a point with editing where, you know, it will cut down the process and the time a lot more. Because I feel like editing still takes forever,
91:11especially with more customized editing styles. But auto captions, that was already a huge game changer and that came out like years ago. So,
91:20yeah, it's only been getting better, but I'm excited for the day where it can take over editing. What does it do for you now? Just automatically cut the silences?
91:28Or I would say, like, auto captions and then some editing styles it can do, but you have to kind of refine it a lot after. Um, but it's been helpful with that.
91:38But since, like, short form is kinda different, like, I could see it in a long form podcast cutting out all the silences or the ones that, like, automatically switch the camera to whoever's talking can be so helpful. Yeah. That's that's how we've used it particularly.
91:52I'm kind of picky with it, though, and tell my editors to redo it. There's one called Autopod that's fairly good. Oh.
91:58Yeah. I have someone in the podcast niche, and we literally just wrote a script about that, like how to use it. But yeah.
92:04Interesting. And, like, what do you think? Yeah.
92:08It's just it's not it's not great because I'm just picky about how I want it. To.
92:13Like, I want like, I think about a lot of content from the emotional perspective. Like, if I say something profound, I would have the camera cut to your face there.
92:22But the AI is not gonna do that automatically, you know, because, like, the good content is in things that AI can't pick up right now.
92:31Yeah. I wish there was prompts you could write, like, edit this video and remove anything that's, like,
92:38emotionally uninteresting. And, like, I wish you could pick up things like that. Yeah.
92:42Or, like, remove everything about this topic or remove, like, when they speak in this tone. That kind of stuff would be nice with AI.
92:51But Mhmm. Have you played with any of, like, the Google VO stuff yet?
92:56No. I haven't. Gotcha.
92:57Yeah. I played with that yesterday or the day before. What exactly is that?
93:01It basically it's the first AI that can make videos from prompts with speech. Oh. So I could, like, make a video of us talking on this podcast.
93:11It wouldn't look like us, but it could say things in a very conversational way. You used to be like, you could do that before, but you would have to, like, use different softwares, but it's Like, 11 Labs and stuff?
93:21Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
93:22Yeah. But it's the first time that you can, like, straight prompt to videos of people, like, interviewing each other or, like, talking about a product. It's kind of scary.
93:31Yeah. You I'll have to show clips of it. Uh, it's really, like, realistic looking.
93:37Yeah. I've seen I saw this video today and it was like, so random.
93:41It's like a 2023 AI video of Will Smith eating spaghetti Yeah. And then the 2025 version.
93:48And it's crazy, like, how much AI's improved. What's one small detail in a video that makes a huge difference? Mhmm.
94:00I would say getting to the value as quick as possible. Obviously, that kind of sounds so obvious, but a lot of times with short form content, people will say the hook, and then they'll say like four other things and then they'll get into the value.
94:13Just get to the value straight away right after the hook. And then also, I guess, just some more little things. Making sure, like, putting your script in Hemingway, which is just a site, and you can make it under a fifth grade level so a lot of people can understand it.
94:27And then also cutting out like, kinda similar to my first point, but all the fluff. So every single unneeded word
94:34or sentence just cut out. Mhmm. Why the fifth grade reading level?
94:40Because people are stupid. Like, most people are stupid and they won't understand it. So just make it dumb.
94:45And then why like fifth grade specifically though? Because most people,
94:50statistically in The US are under a fifth grade reading level. Yeah. That's why.
94:56Yeah. So you got engaged at 16. Mhmm.
94:58Do you think everyone should marry their high school sweetheart? Oh, hell no. No.
95:03I just think I got so lucky with Ben. It's just so rare to meet someone young who is literally like the boy version of you,
95:15who loves business, who loves working out, who is also kind of introverted, who just has the same, like,
95:24religion, political beliefs, literally everything the same.
95:29So we kind of knew right away, like, we did all this hard stuff together. We all had all the the same values. We are each other's best friends.
95:36So it's like, who else would I ever marry in my life than Ben? So it just made sense. But I I think if like you just like love each other or you're just attracted to each other, which that's like a lot of what high school relationships see and you don't have like other things,
95:52then no. What are the benefits of getting married so young?
95:59I mean, a lot of people were like, why? But we were just kind of like, why the hell not?
96:06I don't think there's like, specifically, I don't know, like, special benefits about getting married young, but it's just like something beautiful about committing yourself to one person
96:17for the rest of your life. And just like knowing that,
96:22you know, that I just knew from the start, obviously, that me and Ben were gonna be together for life. But I think it was just such a rare situation.
96:30Yeah. When did you first meet him? 14.
96:33He, like, was like the new guy at school freshman year. So, yeah, smash that up. So funny.
96:41It reminds me of my friend Bailey in high school. She there was this new guy at school, and she was, like, 14. And all the girls were talking about him, and she's like, dibs.
96:53And then she went up to him and they dated from age 14 all the way to, uh, like, through high school. And then they got married, like, as soon as they got her to high school.
97:01Like, she was just so, like, uh, locked in on him. Exactly the same. What's something you had to unlearn about content that you used to think was true?
97:13Gotta think on this one.
97:18Yeah. So I used to think that you had to make videos, like, complex.
97:25I guess, well, you're like sharing the value, but like, you need to make it you need to shove as much value as you can in a video. I used to think like, you had to make content that was super super high value that no other people were talking about,
97:40and you just gotta dumb it down. Kind of what I was saying earlier,
97:46but you just don't wanna make it complex. You don't have to sound super smart, like, when you're trying to do it. That's not the goal.
97:51The goal is to get the viewer to understand what you're talking about. So just way dumbing it down and not shoving so much value in a video, but just focusing on one concept and making it really easy to understand. People don't care how smart you are.
98:03Yeah. No one cares. They just wanna, like, get the value from the thing.
98:07That's a good one, actually. Yeah.
98:10Because we've had people come to us and they just wanna speak in, like, their target audiences, like, lingo, but they might not know the lingo or they're like, we have to make this for one person, but they're treating it like ads.
98:26This is organic social media. You have to be super broad so you can appeal to a ton of people and then you niche in the CTA. But people are going a niche hook, so they're like,
98:36uh, do you have back pain? And you're like, actually, no, that's not a good example. It's, um,
98:41you know, do you live in, you know, insert small town in your whatever. Like, you don't wanna do that. This is not an ad.
98:48Like, you want to start off very broad. They call it like the broad narrow niche framework. A super broad hook to apply to a ton of people, narrow value
98:57that applies to your target audience, but also a big group of people, and then a niche hook. So I mean, a niche CTA. So you're only getting your target audience as leads.
99:07Because that way, you get high watch time. And if you, like, you niche it down, you're gonna have no watch time because people are gonna scroll.
99:15So that's probably it. That's good. If
99:19we had to make if we had to craft, like, the perfect video right now for a podcast,
99:27like, I think it would be very helpful to the viewers, like, actionably see what you might do. So let's just take it about your story.
99:34Like, what would be, like, the perfect question to ask you that, like, you think would be viral? Probably something with the hook that was results based, which was, like, if you had to go from zero to 500 k in six months, what would you do
99:51in like 60 sites? And then I would break it down like step one, step two, step three, step four, very actionable, very tangible, and then that would probably be it.
100:01Just like a CTA to follow or something. But Interesting. Yeah.
100:05Let's try it for sides purposes. If you had to go from zero to $1,000,000 a month no. No.
100:10No. It'd be if you had to go from if you had to go from if you had to go from 0 to $1,000,000
100:16in six months, how would you do it? Do want me to answer? Sure.
100:20Okay. So it's gonna be kind of repeat from what we talked about, but I'll just answer. Step one, I would go to the Instagram explore page.
100:28I would hit the search bar. I type in my niche, and then I would click the reels tab, and I would save, like, a 100 videos over a million views.
100:37Then I would step two, take the hooks from those videos and the value or the general topic of those videos, and I would write 30 scripts basically with those viral hooks, but my own niche expertise
100:50as the value. I would post those videos every single day on one account, and I would just repeat that over and over again until I got my first viral video. And then I would, step three,
101:02double down on that viral video, the hook that was used, the topic that was talked about, and I would just change the formats up, and I would just keep posting them, and you will grow.
101:13Okay. So it's you were talking about followers. I was thinking you were talking about was that about dollars?
101:19Or No. It's followers. Followers.
101:21Okay. That's I would do for followers. For a million followers.
101:23Okay. Got it. Okay.
101:25I would add visuals to that. So, like, if I'm explaining the research process, like, add a screen recording doing that.
101:31Got it. Yeah.
101:33That was pretty good. That was interesting watching you do it, uh, because it was like, very unscripted. Like, I'm so bad unscripted, I won't lie.
101:41Same, honestly. But that was like my 7,900,000 view video.
101:44The hook was what was it? Not to flex, but I'm pretty I I don't know if I can swear on this.
101:51No. No. You can.
101:52Okay. It was not to flex, but I'm pretty fucking good at social media marketing. And then the written hook was
101:57that what what you just said, the hook for that. And then the value of the video was a step by step breakdown I just gave, but a lot better,
102:06um, because it was scripted, and then a CTA. So I might say, how are you so fucking good at social media?
102:13And that would be like viral. Yeah.
102:16What the cursing thing is really interesting. Yeah. I've noticed like a lot of your videos, you curse in the hooks.
102:21Yeah. I I won't lie. I swear like a sailor.
102:25I've been trying to be really good here because I didn't know, and I wanted to be a You could cuss a lot. I I assumed you were Christian, so you did a curse or something. But, like, that is my one thing I'm, like, terrible at.
102:35Yeah. Because, like, I just was with a friend group that started cursing when they were 12. So I have just been doing it for so long, but I'm trying to be better.
102:43But So to break down, like, what you just did there, like, it seemed like your tonality and speeding like, your the speed at which you said the words change. Like, do you try to get in things quickly?
102:54Yeah. With shorts, you gotta talk fast. And I always try with with my tone,
102:59I call it like the know it all tone. That's kind of what I go for in my content, and it works really well.
103:05But I also need to talk fast, especially when you're giving a huge breakdown like that to keep it under sixty seconds. Yeah. It seems like there's a lot of confidence, like, that you're the authority.
103:13Yeah. Is that something you, like, worked on, or is it just kind of what you had naturally? Yeah.
103:18It's definitely something I worked on, but, like, not really intentionally. When I first started content, I literally screamed at the camera. Like, because I was just, like, I didn't have a mic, so I was like talking so loud and it's terrible to look back at.
103:30But, yeah, I think over time, and just like,
103:34because of the results I've gotten, I've just been a lot more confident and I just know what I'm saying is what works. Maybe you won't be able to speak about all these, but what are some opportunities you've turned down on social media? Mhmm.
103:49Yeah. The only thing I've ever promoted on social media was personal brand launch.
103:55Like, I don't do I get I mean, probably are the same. I get so many emails about
104:03services, like, big brands of just, like, ManyChat, Adobe,
104:08all like Whoop, the newest one. I think The Whoop bracelet or WAP? Oh, WAP.
104:14That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah.
104:16In Mon Godsey's new thing. Yeah. Yeah.
104:19Yeah. All those, I just turn down just because I know it will distract me,
104:25and I hate being, like, under someone else's control, like, having to do stuff for other people that, like, the service past?
104:33No. That's interesting that you know that because it's something I haven't really like Well, did. One thing.
104:39If you do do brand deals, kind of subjugate yourself to, oh, now I can't talk about these set of things if I want these to continue. Interesting. So it was never like your dream to be like influencer
104:48girl with all these sponsors. No. No.
104:51I hate traveling. You hate traveling?
104:55Yeah. Have you been, like, outside The US? Yeah.
104:58I hate traveling. I'm such a homebody. Yeah.
105:03Yeah. You have to travel a lot for podcasts. It's Yeah.
105:05I can imagine. Because do you usually go out to guests? Because, like, I mean, when you're talking to people like Andrew
105:13or, like, all these other people, you probably have to travel a lot. Yeah.
105:18This is a logistically tough business. I think you would I would hate it. Hate this business.
105:23Interviews, like, whether yeah. I don't.
105:25Yeah. It's like always trying to, like, book a like, she's like, Jack, can we please book the hotel, like, two days in advance and the plane tickets at least two days in advance? I'm like, no.
105:34I can't get it until this guest says it in this wording that they're doing it. Like, you can't even prepare the research until,
105:43like, I I I don't know, until it's just a very obvious message that states they're gonna do it and they have a time in mind. You know? Mhmm.
105:50Someone like you, I was like, okay. This will be easy. Like, she's gonna be here all the time.
105:54She'll probably be here earlier. Mhmm. Like Yeah.
105:56I was actually here, like, three minutes ago, but I just sat in the car. Funny enough, the earliest, um, the person who arrived earliest to the podcast ever was Andrew Tate.
106:05Really? Yeah. He arrived, like, thirty, forty five minutes early before his team even got there.
106:10Um, and we're like, bro, what are you doing here? Like, it's so confusing. That's impressive.
106:14Um, but, yeah, like, no everyone else is, Yeah. Like, so Like, difference between girls and guys?
106:20We haven't had an extreme amount of girls. Like, it's really just been Candace Owens, Leila Hermozzi, and then the top two girls from Beast Games. Jenny Hoyos.
106:30You know Jenny Hoyos? She's a YouTube shorts watched her episode with you. And she yeah.
106:34I've known her before the episode that I watched. But, yeah, she's incredible. Yeah.
106:38I think every girl has been pretty on time. Now that that's never been an issue, actually. I've noticed just like with this might be controversial,
106:47but I do love working with girls and women specifically just because
106:54they seem to have a lot more attention to detail and
107:01they care more and they're more personable. And like, when I've worked with men in the past, they just end up getting let go because they don't care as much and like, the client doesn't like that.
107:14And I've just I've had like girl and guy account managers, and I'm not opposed to hiring a guy account manager. I would only hire girl account managers to add your business Every to single guy I've ever had as an account manager has gotten let go.
107:26Interesting. Are there any roles in the company that are, like, guy specific usually, part of the editors? Sales.
107:32And editors. There are quite a few editors that are male. Yeah, for sure.
107:35I would say primarily male editors, but sales I mean, we've had girls in the past, but we only had actually one,
107:45but she, like, lasted maybe a week and a half.
107:51But the guys, like, they just crush. I feel like they're so hungry. And since the commissions are in their control, like, they control how much commissions they get, like, how many people they close.
108:01So they're just so much more motivated, and I think they're really out of sales. Yeah.
108:05The sales rep I spoke with from your company was really good. He, like, recognized immediately that I wasn't going to buy. Mhmm.
108:11And, like, just It might have been Joe or Charles or was it, like, an older man? Like, maybe not older man, but, like, forties? I can't remember.
108:19I feel like it was on Zoom without his face, or maybe it was just on a phone call. Um, but he just identified quickly that I wasn't buying and then stopped giving, like, the information about the program or something.
108:30And I was like, you're smart. Yeah. Um, but
108:34that's interesting. Have you was it hard for you to hire salespeople for the company, or did you just have a lot of experience with, uh, like, doing over the phone sales for the real estate? Honestly, I feel like sales is just one of the ones where
108:49you hire people who aren't super set in their ways. They're a little more like, you usually hire people who are more experienced at their skill set. But with sales, what's great about it is you can hire someone
109:00who hasn't really done it too much before, but they're hungry and they don't have all the bad habits that most sales reps have because they aren't trained right. Do you guys have a fairly high close rate?
109:10Yeah. I mean, I would say it's average, like 40%. I don't know if that's average.
109:16Is that average? I feel like that's particularly high. Oh, I don't know.
109:21I mean, when I go to the workshops at Hermosy, like, that's what they say. Like, they will from what whenever I tell them mine or because, like, sometimes we'll talk more about sales, sometimes we'll talk more about marketing. But usually when we talk about sales, they say what I have is, like, pretty standard.
109:37And that's like a warm lead or a cold lead? Or Warm.
109:40Warm. All my leads are like very warm. People who've been watching my social media for probably months,
109:46at least. And how do you filter that out? What do you mean?
109:49Like, uh, they go to VSL and did they get on the call immediately, or how does it work? So my funnel is the ManyChat comment.
109:57They get DM'd the landing page. And then there is like someone like a social proof on the landing page, kind of a process breakdown,
110:06benefits, results, all that stuff. And then they can book a call. And then after they book, there's a VSL before the call.
110:13What are like some things you definitely should not do on Instagram that people do to try and grow? Like buying followers, buying engagement. That will destroy your account.
110:23We have so many people who like not so many people, but we've had a few that have bought followers and like it just destroys your account. Like, you buy it, just make a new account.
110:34Give up on the account because it will destroy your account. What are some other things that will hurt the account? We talked about posting outside of The US.
110:42Yeah. So like posting on a third party platform,
110:47just to Instagram specifically, it just won't do well even if it's a great post, or
110:54I would say never fall for like the engagement hacks that you have to do, you have to engage fifteen minutes a day, or you have to do x y z comments after you post a video, or you have to post it x y z time. All that's BS.
111:09Don't even listen. Let's see what else. I guess, like, just when you kinda like we talked about earlier,
111:18if you're in the fitness nation, you post a video about, I don't know, like your cat. It won't do well if your audience
111:26like, if you built up an audience for people who follow you for fitness. Does that matter on Instagram anymore though? I would say still yes.
111:33Because like, when I tried if I ever tried posting social media stuff on my personal page, it just won't do well. Interesting. Yeah.
111:42What's one question you wish people would ask you about social media, but they don't?
111:49Probably, what do I not need to do? Because
111:53I think on social media, unfortunately, especially in my niche, like, there's so many things that are promoted that you should do, like, so many things that people think they have to do to grow an account.
112:04Like I was talking about earlier, like engaging on social media and stuff like that. I think people should ask more about, like, what they can eliminate.
112:16I think because with our even in, like, with our company processes, we always are trying to figure out, like, what we can subtract or automate to make our lives easier
112:26because there's so much noise and so many fake things that you don't even need to do. And, like, there was, like, what during my huge growth phase, I didn't even have time to go on Instagram at all. Like, I wouldn't even engage on the platform.
112:38My assistant posted for me, so I wouldn't even be on it and I still grew. So there's just probably what do I not need to do. That's
112:47a really good answer. Do you scroll on
112:52Instagram consistently to, like, always try to stay in the know of what's going on, or do you not find that important? I used to not as much, but now lately I have been.
113:04Especially, like, making that a thousand hooks lead magnet, I guess, that just changed everything.
113:12So now I kind of make it I have on my little, like, to do list every single day, twenty minutes of intentional scrolling. And that's I will for like twenty minutes a day, but strictly for either to learn stuff and post stuff about content if I'm seeing like a trend or something that's working for business owners, or stuff that we can do for clients.
113:31Like, do you ever try to invent anything? Like, new ideas, like, nothing that's, like, technical, statistically proven to be an outlier? Yes.
113:42And sometimes it works. I would say, because, like, on my personal page, I got engaged at 16 wasn't something I studied, or that
113:5050,000,000 view video. That wasn't something that I studied.
113:55It was just something I had a really good feeling would do well because it's so controversial. Yeah. I've noticed a lot of my really big ones have been out of the box that I haven't seen anywhere, but it's usually
114:06taken from somewhere. You know? Like, you can usually tie back and be like, oh, I took it from this person.
114:11Like, you probably saw this video. I had, like, a compilation of guests saying good question. That's a good question.
114:16I did see that video. Yeah. I think that's when I
114:21so like, I obviously knew about you, but I saw that video specifically, and that's why I followed your, like, original Jack account. Like, the just the Jack one.
114:30What made you follow it? Just to That video. Just because, like, you're like, oh, that's good marketing or, like, you're, like, always had on these guests?
114:36Like, what made you? Well, I've seen your face, like, a million times. And then I saw this really good piece of short form content.
114:42And whenever I see, you know, like, people with good content that I can also, like, use for myself as inspiration or for clients as inspiration, I'll always follow. Interesting. Mhmm.
114:51Yeah. Because I asked it's so funny. I talked about this.
114:55It's a really meta concept that that after that video came out, all the guests started saying good question on the podcast. Oh, I think I've already said it. Yes.
115:05Like, at a really high rate. And then every single comment on my videos were like, dang, this guy asked good questions. Like, people would say to me in person, like, bro, your podcast is great.
115:14Like, you ask such good questions. I'm like, like, you this didn't used to happen.
115:18It's like you're implanting you're literally influencing people's opinions. You know what I've noticed about you is like, you're very neutral on podcasts.
115:27Like, I feel like you're very calm and like, you don't force your opinions on people or you don't judge people for what they say or anything, which I feel like is rare because people always wanna talk and always wanna, like,
115:43influence, I guess, their opinion on people's answers. But I really like you as a host for that reason. I
115:49appreciate that. Yeah. That's been a really intentional
115:52decision. Yeah. Like, we haven't hosted
115:56some of our past controversial guest a second time because we didn't want to fall too much into a niche. But Mhmm. Yeah.
116:04I think there's a lot of power in being neutral. I think it creates better content if people feel comfortable that this person
116:14like, you don't know if I'm like, I have certain political beliefs, but you know that I talk to a lot of people with a different with a lot of different types of ones. Yeah.
116:24Actually, have a question about one of your guests. You don't have to add this in, but you did the one I forget his name.
116:31He's like the very religious one. Cliff and Stewart Konekley. Yeah.
116:35I listened to that. I really enjoyed that. That was like one of my favorites.
116:40Yeah. They're really great. That was a They're so, like I just love how they always reference, like, the Bible and stories and
116:47yeah. That was a tough one. It's so funny with podcasts that, like, the amount of preparation you do for each one is so vastly different.
116:56Uh, like, something like this, since you didn't have many interviews and I already already understand social media a bit, like, it's less prep required Mhmm. Than Cliff and Stewart, which is study the entire history of the bible and Judaism and Islam and, like, cross compare everything and then come at them with questions.
117:13You know? Or, like, I don't know, Robert Greene, we're having on next week, like, 48 Laws of Power. And it's like, read all of his books ever, you know, and then, like, study all the historical figures who've used it.
117:25It's it's a really funny one. Yeah. Yeah.
117:28Especially, like, people like Hermosy. Because, like, if you don't consume his content or his books, like, there's so much out there that you'd have to That was tough too. Yeah.
117:36Him and Tate, like, I watched every podcast they've been on to make sure there was there was stuff they hadn't heard. Yeah. Formosy is the hardest person to interview ever, by the way.
117:45Mhmm. Because the way he thinks, it's like I'm like, would this I'm like, would your businesses have been more successful if you prioritized your relationship sooner?
117:54He's like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know what I think about it.
117:57Mhmm. You know? Like, he won't think about anything in the past.
118:00Mhmm. You know? And then he's like, that word doesn't make sense to me.
118:05Yeah. I listened to that episode. That was funny.
118:07There's just like some of those like very short answers and you're like, okay, next question. Yeah. Mhmm.
118:13I did like how you like switched up the last question. And I'm pretty sure that's a reel that did well for you. Yeah.
118:19That was the one they collab posted. Yeah. It was doing pretty well.
118:23Because even before this, I, like, made it a daily habit to listen to your podcast at the gym. So I, like, have my notes up, and I just have random facts about you.
118:32I I studied you before I came here too. I've never had anyone do that.
118:36Yeah. I think one other person who was CIA said they watched the podcast. Uh, that's pretty rare, actually, that people are like, oh, yeah.
118:42I've been watching it. Mhmm. Why shouldn't you copy big creators?
118:48Because people will know. Like, you see
118:52copycats of, like, huge people in every single niche, and think about how embarrassing it is for people to see that video that you created and being like, oh, this is just a copy of x y z.
119:05Like, copy the hooks because those work and they probably copied hooks too. But make sure your value is different because if you are just copying other people, then you don't really know anything,
119:20or you don't look like an authority. And if you if one person sees you copy a video, you are like ruined.
119:27Your reputation is ruined in their mind forever. They won't trust anything you say because they'll just think it's copied from another person. How many people should you copy for one video?
119:37Should it be like five different things from five different people? How do you think about that?
119:42Um, I always recommend, like, if you're posting as a business owner, some of that value and education should just be from your own personal experience and the results you've gotten. But obviously, if you're
119:55like an educator on like a like a crime, for example, like what you kinda used to do, you don't make that up. That's just like based off of resources. So
120:05I would just say multiple, at least three,
120:10if you're making like a short about it. But also just because if you're doing with something like crime, there's gonna be so much different information everywhere, so you kinda need to cross check things anyway.
120:20What inspired you to do, um, your niche? Um, was there anyone in particular doing it at the time at a high level? Oh, I yeah.
120:29I would say there's people like who like specialized in Instagram growth, but it wasn't necessarily like short form content based. But I just I love it. It's so interesting to me and I love marketing in general.
120:41Like, love people like Russell Brunson, a huge fan of him, and anyone who just talks about funnels and how that works. So I think it was just an appeal to the niche.
120:51But, yeah, it kinda just all started from just posting shorts as well. Did you go to his events back in the day?
120:58No. I was too young. Yeah.
121:00And now, like, does he do events anymore? Probably. Funnel hacker.
121:05But like, I don't use click funnels, so or anything, but I used to. You use Go High Level? Yeah.
121:10Use Go High Level now. Who's that made by? I have no idea.
121:13But it's really good for, like, agencies. What's one part of your childhood that you feel is really important to understand
121:21you and who you are today? Yeah. So we talked a little bit about loyalty
121:26so far. And I think growing up, I grew up surrounded by men who lied, cheated on their partner,
121:35watched porn, and had wandering eyes. And I grew up surrounded by women who accepted it and said, Ava, that is just what men do.
121:45Ava, that's just a guy thing. And I refuse to believe that shit. Like, men are
121:51men are in control of what they do. And I think growing up surrounded by people like that, it just made me really really
122:01know that I could never be with a partner who does those sort of things. And there's this verse in the Bible, it's like, but if he looks at another woman lustfully, he's already committed adultery in his heart.
122:13If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better for you to lose one part of your body than have your entire body thrown into hell. Your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away.
122:23For it is better for you to lose one part of your body than have your entire body thrown into hell. And it's basically saying that
122:31mentally lusting after someone and physically being with after, like, with someone and kind of doing those acts while you still have a partner.
122:39That's they're all cheating. There's not like certain levels one's not worse than the other. It's all cheating.
122:44And I think we live in a society today where there's just so much access. So you're really able to see it's like a blessing and a curse because you're really able to see with all that access,
122:56like, who is truly loyal and like And where do your morals come from?
123:03Like, have you always been religious from a young age? Yeah. So my parents
123:10my parents are amazing, by the way. Like, they
123:16raised me to be I had older parents. They had me in their forties. So they're older and I think
123:22them just being wiser when they raised me definitely helped with who I am now.
123:30But they were always very consistent with things like church. I obviously had like a rebellious phase when I was like 13, 14,
123:38but I like didn't want to go to church. My church was boring, but now I'm like very dedicated every Sunday in there. Christian, Catholic, or Lutheran.
123:47Lutheran. But I'm not, like, I could be any. But I just go to a Lutheran church.
123:52That makes sense. Mhmm. And then you grew up with sisters, brothers, or Yeah.
123:57Have an older sister. Got it. Is she like on a similar entrepreneurial path?
124:01Or is it She's like we're kind of like equal opposites. She
124:07she's redhead. We look nothing alike. But she is very dedicated, but when it comes to
124:13school, like, four point o straight a's,
124:17graduated with honor. She just graduated college this past in May.
124:22So but she's like going to be the best employee. Like, is just I want her, but I know she'll never work for me.
124:31Very similar situation with my sister. Yeah. She's like she's about to graduate college.
124:37She's like an becoming like a doctor of neuroscience, but like Wow. She I wanted her to work for me when I was like 18, 19, like, to be a writer for the crime channel because she's the only person that can write like me, I think, like, genetically speaking.
124:51Like, it makes sense that she can kind of, like, think like me. But she's just we just clash super hard.
124:58Mhmm. But what's your take on college as a 20 year old that makes $700,000
125:04a month? I mean, personally, I hire based on experience,
125:09not a degree. If you have results, that is all I care about.
125:14And the best companies actually, would say bigger companies care about college, like Google, Amazon, but
125:22I would say a majority of businesses don't care about that. They care about results that you've generated.
125:28And then personally, I think if you're not getting a degree like, if you want a job that doesn't need a degree, then don't go to college.
125:37But if you wanna be a dentist or a vet, go to college. But anything else, just start right when you graduate, so then you can fail and live with your parents until you succeed.
125:48And you'll have all those four years just to fail fail fail, and you'll you'll eventually succeed. But I think college is a waste of time and money if you're not using the degree you get. Finding success at a young age I spoke to Aman Gazzi about this, and he said that the one regret he had was Oh, I know where you're going with this.
126:09Just kind of, like, never got to experience, uh, going to parties and, like, having friends and that kind of thing. Has that never really been a concern for you?
126:17And just if you knew that you were guaranteed success at an older age, do you think you would have lived differently when you were younger? I before I met or before I got together with Ben,
126:28I kind of had that phase
126:32of I just I I wouldn't say to the extent you would have in college because I was still pretty young,
126:39but just not doing the best stuff or just being too young to do certain things.
126:47But I kind of had that like party phase, and I just looking back am
126:54I wouldn't say ashamed, but I'm just not proud of her. And I wouldn't
127:00really want to
127:04be her. So it just depends, like, if,
127:08you know, drinking and doing that stuff is like what you think you'll look back on and that will be the good old days for you, then yes, go to college, do your thing. But
127:19I don't know. I I personally think I probably have such a niche opinion on it. So I most people probably wouldn't agree, but I just
127:29I don't want my life to be I don't want to ever be like that again.
127:36What's like the part of your life that you're, like, most look forward to every day, like, your routine? So, like, anything that's super exciting for you, or is there anything, like, upcoming that you and Ben are doing that you're really excited for?
127:51Yeah. I would say I have two parts of my day that I love.
127:54I love working in the morning, drinking my coffee,
127:59being alone, and just like getting to do what I love. I think that's my favorite part of the day. And then I love after work, just hanging out with Ben.
128:08And whether like we're hanging out or I love to read, that's like my one, like, guilty pleasure. I will read all the time, not like business books, like, just like regular books.
128:18And I just love reading. And there's this thing it's called BookTube or like BookTok or Book Instagram where people just talk about books. I love that.
128:29Yeah. That's my thing. But anything with Ben.
128:33And I would say, like, this might sound depressing, but, like, I just have, like, very few friends. Just have a couple, like, may I wouldn't even, like, there's friends from high school that now go to college that, like, will hang out maybe three times a year.
128:46Those are like my friends, but, like, my true one friend is just Ben. But I love Ben, and I only need Ben. So Do you give a lot of merit to IQ and success level
128:58when it comes to social media or business? Like, have you done IQ tests? Honestly, no.
129:04Really? Like, Alex and Leila would say they don't consider IQ that important, but I'm curious if you, like, think about it with your relationships, if it's important for you to be a successful entrepreneur.
129:16I would say it's more just about, like, the person, their morals, and just
129:23basically, when you look at someone, never believe what they say. Just believe their actions and the results they've gotten people and what they do daily.
129:32And that's what I judge people by, and that's how I also hire people. So, like, you're not allowed to ask in interviews, do you go to the gym?
129:40But that's illegal. But you can ask them like, oh, what are your hobbies?
129:45Like, what do you do day to day? Stuff like that. And you can just see based off of that, like, what kind of person they are.
129:51That's a really good piece of advice. Yeah. For interviews, what other
129:55things do you ask that have been like golden questions? Yeah. So something I have done for a very long time, which I love, it's not necessarily a question,
130:05but I do tests. So
130:08for, like, copywriting positions or editor positions, we'll just do paid tests after we we'll do, like, the application.
130:16We'll do a paid test, and then if they pass that, we'll do culture fit interview. What kind of test? Just like if it's an editor position, we'll have them edit a short for the test.
130:25Okay. Okay. You mean yeah.
130:27Gotcha. Mhmm. I I thought you meant like personality tests.
130:29Oh. But you mean like kinda like a trial Like, literal test. Test.
130:32Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
130:32Okay. And those work super well just to weed people out. Because some people I mean, I'm I can easily spot it now, but they'll just use ChatGPT on their application,
130:43so then they don't actually know anything. So you can see with tests and weed people out really well. So that is my best my best hack.
130:51How do you know if someone is using ChatGPT when messaging you something? Here are the phrases.
130:58Here's the truth. Skyrocket. I'm sorry.
131:03I'm trying to think of all, like, the terms you hear when ChatGPT writes something. But here's the secret.
131:09It just says like, you can I can now recognize like how it talks and like how it words stuff or like things like the double dash? Double dash is classic.
131:19Yeah. Yeah. Like I see that in applications all the time immediately.
131:21Skip. It's unfortunate because I use the double dash in my writing. And then now I'm like, damn it.
131:26People think I've used in chat GPT. Yeah. We had an issue with that.
131:30Clients were thinking that and we were like, oh my god. Shoot. So we in our SOP, it says no double dashes.
131:35Interesting. Mhmm. That that was something I was gonna ask you about, but I didn't wanna make you look bad.
131:40It's like, it like, can this all just be automated with ChatGPT, or is it like actual grunt work? I mean, it's all grunt right now. If one day it would be as effective,
131:49yes, that'd be great. But right now, it's just not
131:54I've never been able to successfully train ChatGPT to write how I write. Yeah.
131:59Me neither. I was able to at first when it came out, like, fairly well, and then it just got worse. Really?
132:05Like, I noticed ChatGPT like, I don't know. It was like it had too much I don't know.
132:10I think they dumbed down the model, honestly, um, to make them more money. Probably makes sense. Maybe.
132:15But who's the most impressive person you've ever met?
132:24Probably Alex Hermosy in person.
132:29And you've never observed anyone aside from Alex perhaps that actually No one I've met.
132:37If we're talking about, like, the question was have you ever met, you know, someone or seen someone like that? No, I haven't.
132:43Besides Alex. I I haven't personally talked to Leila, but I bet she's the same way.
132:50She definitely was. Yeah. Yeah.
132:53It it it was interesting meeting those two, for sure. They're very different, but They work well together.
133:00Yeah. I think a lot of people assume they have different beliefs for some reason, but it's all pretty much the exact same stuff. Yeah.
133:06I think they have the same beliefs and then her their skill sets obviously, you're if you listen to both of their episodes with you, they're both about very different kind of parts.
133:16Like, he's obviously the visionary and then, you know, she kinda implements. But like, they would just obviously, that works perfectly together. And then, guess, last question here.
133:25Uh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
133:31Treat everybody like they're an undercover Jesus. You'll notice how much better and kinder you are to people.
133:41Treat everyone like they're an undercover Jesus. Where did you hear that? Some religious
133:47person online, I I don't remember who exactly, but all I know is little advice sticks, but that really has.
133:57Because I used to just be the type of person who would like never compliment people like strangers, never compliment strangers. I would just put my head down if I was walking past someone so I didn't have to smile.
134:07But it's definitely changed the way I even handle like little interactions day to day. How else have you found it useful? Yeah.
134:16I would never say like I was ever a mean person, like, I'm always kind of a people pleaser, but I find now that I'll go a lot more out of my way to make people on my team or Ben or just anyone I interact with, like, just treat them better and leave the
134:35best impression I can. I can't explain, I just treat everyone like they're an undercover Jesus. It'll change your life.
134:42Well, everyone, uh, this has been your guest, Eva Juergens. Uh, where can people find you really quick? Personal Brand Launch on Instagram or Eva Juergens on Instagram, and pretty much all other platforms.
134:53This is the Jag Neil podcast. Appreciate you coming off. Yeah.
— full transcript
§ 05 · For Joe
Virality is a research process, not a creative gift.
WHAT TO LEARN
The gap between creators who occasionally go viral and those who do it repeatedly comes down to a documented monthly research system, not better ideas.
- One educational video with a clear step-by-step format and a comment CTA can generate thousands of qualified leads in a single cycle if the hook is proven through outlier research first.
- Done-for-you recurring services convert at a higher rate than courses because business owners want execution, not instruction — the offer that does the work wins over the offer that teaches how.
- Find the top 10-20 creators in any niche, identify every video where views are at least 5x their follower count, and log the hook, topic, and format in a spreadsheet — this is the only swipe file worth building.
- Running outlier research every month on every account is what separates agencies that compound from ones that plateau — it is not a one-time onboarding step.
- There are three simultaneous hooks in every video: visual (what you see), written (on-screen text), verbal (what is said). Visual now outranks verbal because most feeds are watched on mute.
- Talking-head format consistently generates more followers and leads than audio-b-roll even at lower view counts — the viewer's investment in following a person, not a format, drives conversion.
- Entertainment and meme content drives views but not followers. If follower growth is the goal, the content type must change even when view counts look healthy.
- Posting content outside the niche you built your audience on resets algorithmic targeting — the account becomes invisible to the new audience before the old one is gone.
- Fluff is advice that sounds complete but cannot be acted on. Real value is specific enough to execute immediately: a named calculator, an exact number, a step that requires no interpretation.
- One topic per video, explained as simply as possible, outperforms five packed insights in short-form — depth per idea beats breadth of coverage.
- Scaling an agency without losing quality requires SOPs at the individual-click level for every process, including both written instructions and screen-recording walkthroughs.
- When a founder personally reviews every script, that bottleneck is the ceiling on the entire business — the first hire that breaks it is someone who can do ideation at the founder's standard.
- ManyChat comment automations outperform landing-page traffic for Instagram leads because the friction is lower and the social graph stays intact.
- Requiring a follow before sending a freebie is more valuable than an email opt-in: the follower stays in the algorithm feed, while email lists degrade and do not compound.
- Posting from a US-based IP address outperforms posting via VPN on Instagram — account managers should be US-based, not working remotely with tunneled connections.
- New accounts take roughly three to four months before a first viral video — the accounts that stop before month four never collect enough data to know what works.
- Using AI to write scripts makes content look fraudulent; the correct use is research and data aggregation, not generation.
- The most defensible agency moat is 10-12 hours per month of outlier research per client — most competitors skip it, and it is the single input most correlated with client results.
